Building a Fast SOT Fishing Kayak

[JonS]

I'm starting this thread essentially to show the manufacturers that there is a need for this craft on the eastern seaboard. That means Maine to Texas. This way if they see that we've talking about it maybe one or more of them will build it.

We're talking a 16-17 footer that would be faster then a Tarpon 160 and properly set up for fishing. A kayak that approaches touring kayak cruising speeds that also fishes very well. By this we mean good surfaces to accept lots of accessories including a beveled edge for mounting flush mounts. A front hatch capable of storing a Roleez big wheel cart. Center hatch storage with a minimum of a 10" round but preferable a small rectangular. A functional instrument array. A rear tankwell right behind the seat with a hatch filling up the remainder of the rear to the stern. Of course an internal rudder. Bring the whole package in under 60#s.

So who wants a kayak like this. Speak up and be heard.

baja55@optonline.net

[Bernie]

Hard to pull off a yak that size under 60lb in plastic without compromising durability or sacrificing a little too much stability.The only chance youd have would be to make it fairly narrow.That would lead to a very low,wet seat for stability and likely put the center hatch under water as well ala OK yaks.In fact,overall the Prowler probably comes closer to the boat you describe than anything else currently available.

[Scott]

Bernie, I'm no expert in plastics,but couldn;t the design of the yak incorporate structural design that would lend itself to rigidity without adding weight? ie Arch bridges, or support bridges? There must be a way to get the weight in and still have what we want. I'd like to see that yak. Now not sure it could handle a big guy, but stability is still an issue. I also would like to see it have a hatch in fron tof the yakker like on the FnD. Without a doubt it is the most useful hatch I have on yaks for all around use. S

Yak, Yak, Yak...is that all I do?

Changed for the betterment of the board!!!!!

[saltyh2ofly]

All that sounds great better to have too much than ask "where is it?". Surface areas for mounting is big because you'll need GPS and fish finders mounted after traveling a long distance as well as rod holders. I feel kayaks companies should think about re-designing the hulls. It seems there is very little in the R&D of hull design like that in racing boats which in turn is then used in production craft. I feel right now the kayak industry is just playing catch-up to requests or what the market place is asking for at the moment instead of real R&D. I could be wrong but with the West Coast so far ahead of the kayak fishing scene you would think the manufactures would have come a longer way by now. Flats boats have come along way and other boat manufactures are always looking to improve. The Glacier Bay boats with their catamaran designs have fast and stable boats. The Ride has that pontoon style rather than catamaran design. The weight issue is really a technical issue based on materials used in production as well as design. Though reducing weight it will add to the cost or a new inexpensive plastic could be developed for the building process. I'm sure manufactures have thought of this before but it's now time for the cream to rise to the top. Only foward thinking manufacture will start to pull in the fishing kayaker. The lastest issue of Canoe and Kayak listed all the kayaks made....wow there are alot! But fishing SOT designs were very small part of the market place, so here is a chance for a company to take the lead. WS or OK or Cobra or Emotion or ___________(fill in the blank) will get it right someday. Hey Cabela's could even step in and just have one built for them ...

Sit back and enjoy the ride!

[JoeB]

Right here, boss. I'd love to see it come to fruition (sp?).

PS. JonS-Just curious but why a rectangular center hatch verus a circular one?

Have kayak, will travel.
http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=4946071543

[Marko Fisho]

Hi Joe,
With a rectangular hatch not only can you have an internal pulley sytem for storage boxes but you can also store rods for when your going through the surf or just to store extra rods.

Thats one thing I hate about the tarpon 120!!! I think I'm going to get a fisherman for next season.

------------------
Once you try Yak you won't go back.

[rwolson]

Definitely.

When I first bought my current boat I only thought I'd paddle maybe a mile, but find I'm spending a lot of time paddling distance. You need speed and a hull capable of easy, efficient paddling to chase down moving flocks of gulls and terns chasing busting fish and bait. I paddled a couple of smaller sit-insides this year and could not believe how fast the boat squirted across the water's surface.

Also, you need a rectangular hatch for accessing the bilge or below deck for storing away tackle and other gear. I'd like the hatch capable of supporting the weight of us bigger guys when we attempt to stand. I researched kayaks for a few years finding most boats only supported the weight or size of smaller guys in the 5' 8" range; some of us are over 6' and weigh in at 230 or more.

Places to add accessories and rod holders; let's say re-inforced not some cheap piece of plastic, but some actual strength to the area so the deck does not flex when stressed.


When you build bigger boats include handles for carrying the boat within or on the sides. Yes, we can add our own, but a minor detail goes a long way.

Weight of the boat. Yes, I do a lot of weight lifting, but at the end of a long day of fishing and paddling when you are tired moving 70 or 80 pounds around is not fun.


Finally, I like the looks of the Tarpon, the size and the way it moves, but you cannot stand in it plus the lack of a big center hatch turns me off. The boat needs more storage.

[dmac]

A real fast boat is not going to be one that you stand up in so cross that off unless you have outriggers.I would love to see a yak 17-18 feet with a Tarpon type hull.It is fast and also very stable.27" wide.Large front hatch to handle roll ezz type wheels.Large center hatch.Tankwell right behind the seat,with a large hatch behind the tankwell.The perception Bimini seems to have a great layout.Also can these guys get the seat area right.It needs to be just above the water line when fully loaded with a drainage channel running to scupper holes by your feet.Oh yea can it also have that Hobie peddle system also.If not the rest will do http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Made out of that new stiff plastic that some people are experimenting with. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


Doug M

[mrsinbad]

So if it's worth thinking about... it's worth thinking about a lot! Anyway, I'm a detailed kinda guy so here is my short list of WISH LIST ITEMS for a fast SOT. I give suggestions on how to meet this goal as well... For whatever it's worth (FWIW) here it goes and let's add to the wish list:

HULL:
• Shape: Swede Form hull for better center of gravity and quicker turning and to carry more STUFF in the Tankwell and below/around the seat.
• Length: 16-17’ or max 18' (modified 1/05)
• Width: 28-30” (modified 5/04)
• Weight: 60 lbs or under.
• If possible to keep weight down, made out of High Density Polyethylene (not the cheaper LDPE!), or a hybrid yak with fiberglass/carbon fiber/kevlar deck? No body said anything about cost, right?
• Provisions to pop in skegs into scupper holes to increase tracking during bad seas. Use skeg boxes found on wind surfing boards and use wind surfing skegs.
• Provisions for internal rudder system.
• Full oval cross section to get more displacement and storage space. No cuts/wings like Cobra Tourer/Navigator/Explorer.
• Small cup/circular ridge to mount Fishfinder transducer. (added 1/05 per Scott http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS:
• WIND/WEATHER NEUTRAL! No weather cocking and yes, I expect you to test this thoroughly in all wind conditions with the prototype before production.
• Tracks true and glides well even with following waves.
• Turns easily.

BOW:
• At and below waterline, bow is thin and swept back to cut through water.
• Above waterline, bow flares outward to provide additional flotation and buoyancy so the bow does not plow into waves or allows for easier surfing down the face of a wave without pitch poling.
• With flared deck, install Viking Sized A Hatch or larger like Malibu front hatch.
• Must have some rocker to roll over small waves.
• Bow must be efficient and not throw a bow wake and create a lot of noise… Must be quiet!

STERN:
• Must have skeg in stern to provide good tracking and not slide off the face of a wave.
• Metal inserts for rudder points
• Provisions for internal rudder system.
• Access hatch for fiddling with the internal rudder system, stowing additional gear, packing in of stolen pool noodles from my kids, and spraying of Great Stuff Foam.

COCKPIT:
• SMOOTH interior cockpit! No points or poky things to snag things, no bumps to annoy. SMOOTH!
• Water drainage "ruts" around perimeter of seat and footwells leading to scuppers. (Added 1/05)
• No protrusions from peddle system for foot rest or rudder system.
• None of those annoying little bumps in the foot well like what I have in the Tourer…. I’ve grown tired of them already.
• Enough room for me to wiggle my feet when I’m getting skunked!
• Center rib is 3-4” high rib width equal to the mounting plate for a ram ball – no more. Does not have to be the same height of the gunwales. Just has to be enough to prevent me from kicking my STUFF. Only needs to be about 2 feet long.

DECK/GUNWALE:
• Textured deck to prevent glare (would be better if it was a darker color) and stop gear from sliding off by mistake... like sinkers, errrr I mean my Clouser flies (hi Stan)!
• Flat deck lines with slight slant for easy installation of rod holders. Thereafter, curved sides with recessed wells for carry handles. Inside cockpit edges rounded (1/2” radius or more) to prevent scraping during re-entry after dumping.

HATCHES:
• All hatches must be waterproof.
• All hatches must strong enough to withstand gear on inside crashing against the hatch without it popping off in case of flipping. (modified 1/05)
• Must have bow, and stern hatch LARGE enough to stow gear. This includes Roll-Eze carts, full length fly rods (assembled), XL Dry Bags, and large fish. (modified 1/05)
• Must have cockpit hatch (center hatch) min 10” diameter or slightly larger square/rectangular hatch to be able to store small tackle box/medical kit/lunch. Strong enough to stand on. (modified 1/05)
• All hatch mounting and hatches must be readily replaceable… (no fancy recessed lips, etc.)

SEAT:
• Seat has drainage "rut" or one/two scupper holes to drain water.
• Seat bottom is reclined to take pressure point off the tush bones.
• Seat Height Tush line ½” above waterline with an average 225 lb paddler and approx 30lbs of gear/fish.
• Located at the center of bouyancy, center of lateral resistance for easier/softer ride, and easier turning.

TANK WELL:
• Tank well wide enough to hold a large milk crate side ways.
• Indentation for 5 gallon bucket.
• Scupper holes closest to the seat in the corner and cannot be covered by bucket or milk crate.
• Internal ribbing to raise gear to aid in draining.
• Slight slant on tank well floor to aid in draining.
• Attachment points for criss cross bungees and tie down points.
• Length of tank well to exceed 36” and as wide as possible.
• Reinforced scupper tubes so these can act as attachment points for trolling motors if yakker wants to motorize it.

Phew, what did I miss?

mrsinbad http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by mrsinbad on November 13, 2003 at 02:26 PM.]

[Bill Becker]

Jon,

You are on the right track. This is something a lot of guys are looking for.

I've already asked Santa to build one of these for me, but if he doesn't come through I'd buy one for sure (even if it has to weigh more that 60#).

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=418607442&f=9356082241&m=5046023284

The 3 S's are most important to me. Speed, Stability, & Storage.


bb

[Bill Becker]

Yeah... everything Sinbad said. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (except maybe the fiberglass part)

I'll take 2 please. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


bb

[Scott]

Maybe the rod storage could be built into the yak. Say a torpedo tube like compartment. Hatch off set to allow the rod to pass in. Say a hatch maybe 9'wide, 12" long, off set to one side, used to slide rods and reels only. Just an idea. S

Yak, Yak, Yak...is that all I do?

Changed for the betterment of the board!!!!!

[Scott]

Hey Sin, a couple of other things:

A battery tray/utility tray molded on the inside to prevent slipping.

How about an electronic bus for attaching/accessing electronics.

How about a molded in well for FF pucks. Comes with it's own cover as well.

I'd still like to see a recessed spot on the deck or well, that would pressure hold a large plano 3700 series tackle box. Just snap it into place, but the top of the tackle box would be even with the floor/deck.

How about a tool well. Some place to have an anchoring point for pliers, boga, knife, etc. S

Yak, Yak, Yak...is that all I do?

Changed for the betterment of the board!!!!!

[Scooby]

#1 A water proof hatch, between my legs , like the Cobras have. A place to put a camera, cell phone, sunglass and flares.

Hidden rudder is a big plus.

It could be a lighter, but made of a hefty material. Kevlar would be sweet, but fiberglass will do.

Running Lights with a water tight battery compartment.

I like the Tarpons back hatch, so I'd like to keep it. BUT it needs to be water tight.

More speed http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif always a good thing.

And like scott said: Some place to have an anchoring point for pliers, boga, knife, etc.

[calfarmli]

If I want to go that far that fast in shallow water I think I'll be looking at a Jet Ski set up for fishing.Cal

[tommat]

Biggest problem I see with your proposal is the cost factor. One could build a lighter, stronger, faster yak but the price would put it out of reach of the general population. It would have to be a new, start up company who cares more about quality and functionality then mass producing yaks. Then again, how many of you would pay say $1500 to $2000 for a yak with no accessories. Probably not many if I had to guess.

[Ken L]

There is for most a transition that occurs. I started fishing out of a canoe. A small Jon Boat was followed by a larger deep vee and then a bass boat. My original electric motor was followed by a 10hp, then a 25 and finally a 40.
My original concern for stability, weight and manueverability led me to buy my Explorer. There were fewer choices then but now it seems like a lot less than last years model which it is. Now I want the speed and seaworthyness of something longer and faster. The way things are changing it reminds me of the early and mid 90's with PC's.
I really don't think that we have reached a point of diminishing returns with plastic however like we may have with PC's. From my conversations with Jon I can't help but conclude that most of these manufacturers are either little more than mom and pop operations or are insensitive to the market like Hobey. If somebody really good were to come into the picture...

Ken lyons

[MarkT]

I have a 19 ft. long, 20" wide surf ski made of carbon kevlar material that is very fast. Problem is, it's too unstable for me. As you shorten and fatten the kayak, it will get slower. In my opinion, if you want a fast kayak, forget about plastic - it needs a rigid hull that won't ever lose its shape.

[dmac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by calfarmli:
If I want to go that far that fast in shallow water I think I'll be looking at a Jet Ski set up for fishing.Cal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If They make one that is lite enough for me to keep on my roof for 7 months of the year.Does not stink and makes no noise I am there http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Doug M

[McKee Boykin]

I'd like to see OK s-t-r-e-t-c-h--o-u-t the Drifter. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hunter Bunter
http://linville1.com/anim/anim0041.gif

[Sean Juan]

I'd love to see a yak like that...but I'm not sure that we should set weight as a limiting factor.

If a yak had some well thought out handles the weight would be much less of a factor.

If my FND weighed a mere 40 pounds I think it would still be a pain to carry and launch because the handles are so wide and awkward. I've carried much heavier Jon boats with less effort just because they were easier to grip.

I'm not a shipwright but what it they made a yak similar to say the emotion exhilerator only deeper, so you would have that three hull stability when stationary but when on the move it would cut through the water on a knife-like middle hull???

I'll go back to shutting up.

[joeykayak]

The more I think about it the more I think kevlar might be the ticket. I know it might limit some big guys from fitting it but I would like to see it around 26 inches, if we are going to build it for speed lets do that. There will be more than enough stability at 26 inches and say 17 feet. I wish I remembered the name of the kayak, but about 4 years ago a guy had a 16' or 17' SOT and I paddled it around and this thing was rock solid at 24 inches if I remember right.

[JonS]

We're having fun now. There is a reason to my madness. mrsinbad left a long message that essentially said why make it public. The reason is I want to show the manufacturers that there is a real need for this craft. If some company doesn't build it the kayak will get built. I'll address what I can that's been posted/asked.

The reason we want a rectangular hatch, if possible is that way we can store rods below deck. A round hatch is nice but the rec. does more.

AS to a compostie yak costing too much. I've spoken with a lot of guys who have said that they'd spend $2000-2500 for a composite SOT with these features. There's a larger market then one would think. The problem that I see with composite is puncture seceptabity. In the NE we have rocks and down south Oyster beds.

I agree that the weight isn't super important. It it ends up closer to 70#s, cruised at 5 mph and topped out over 7, I'd be happy.

As to a standing platform it would only be able to function with outriggers.

As to molded in items, I'm far from an expert on rotomolding (beagle please jump in) but you guys need to understand the parameters. A rotomolded kayak is essentially 2 clam shells. So each half has to be indentations. There are limitations when you start talking about boxes, etc. Also if possible, they would add to the cost.

baja55@optonline.net

[beagle]

The weight will be over 60#, no getting around that.
Before any manufacturer starts a project like this, I saw the question posed.
Would there be enough folks who would be willing to pay $1200+, for a kayak like this?
That's the biggest factor a maker will look into. A mold like this costs $35,000+. The units have to be out there in a good # before one is made.
Many of the larger makers are not so "free" with their $$ anymore, and are trying to reduce their offerings of models that don't put out enough #'s yearly. Go look through the WS website and you will find model's of yaks that you may have never seen anywhere before. Money being so tight in manufacturing these days means that a maker is not going to drop 35k into a model that is not going to put out several hundred a year. It just does not make sense to carry all the supporting hardware, etc., if the #'s are not there.

So that's the first question to throw out there Jon. How many will pay that price?

[Santiago II]

I've seen long glass SOTs in used for fishing for big fish in Hawaii. I think there's are hard trade offs to be made. If you want a boat that can cruise LI Sound or any long flat water you could probably make this boat and be very happy with it. If you want to run surf in it that will take serious practice.

I'm thinking long and narrow (28 inches or less), not long and wide.

Check out this link to see what people do with their long SIKs down under.

http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/

Check out the photo gallery, especially gallery eight.

Someday God will explain the universe to me ... while I'm waiting I'll go fishing

[Bernie]

Awhile back i asked Scott over at the WS forums about the possibility of putting the Pungo's hull together with a modified Tarpon deck.A "Targo" so to speak.I think this would make an excellent yak.The Pungo 140 though shorter is actually a little faster than the T-160 and a good bit faster than the Pungo 120.If that speed increase from the 12'Pungo to the 14' carries thru in a 16' or longer version of that hull.The boat would be a rocket!With the few mods we want added to the Tarpons deck up top.YEHAH!!!!It really wouldnt take much to do this as far as design goes.Most of it's already there.Just needs some "fine tuning" and about 30K http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[JimW]

There are some fast SOTs around but they don't seem to be what the vast majority want. Probably going to continue that the guys who want to fish from fast kayaks buy SK and learn the skills, practise and get by with less gear. There is definitely something reassuring abt a boat like the Tarpon. No, it's not as fast as a SK, but I know I can grab a handle and get back in it in a heartbeat in some pretty snotty stuff. Doubt you can retain that if you reduce the beam by a significant amount.

Joey, was that a Seda Revenge? I think they're 16.5 by 25 inches.

[joeykayak]

Hey Jim...not sure if it was the Seda, but that does sound like it. I was motoring in the thing. I am curious and will ask my buddy what make it was.

[JimW]

Joey,
Been curious abt the Seda so would be interested to hear comments from owners. Boat gets mixed reviews on quality of workmanship and performance. They make it in a Kevlar lay up that's been said to weigh from 39 lbs (as per specs) to over 60 lbs which just seems nuts.

[Bill Becker]

Jon thanks for "floating" this idea out for all the guys on the forum. Bottom line, I think what we are seeing through the number of responses here is that there are a lot of guys that would buy this type of kayak. I know that I would buy one. As far as guys parting with $, I don't think it's a problem; Guys spend $1000 on a quality flyrod all the time. I have to believe that if a superior product is brought to the market, it will capture a significant portion of this expanding market. A fast SOT kayak is not limited to just fisherman either, the manufacturer that brings this boat to the market should also be able to capture a portion of the recreational kayaking market. Compared to composite SIK kayaks it will be reasonable priced and someone out for a paddle should be able to actually cover some ground. As far as molded in this and molded in that, I really don't want it. Just give me 3 good sized hatches, the rest of the things give us do-it-yourself guys something to tinker with.

bb

[basilkies]

I like the idea of a fast kayak and I think the way to go about it is one fast design that you can accesserize.

So you have this narrow SOT with some flat spaces designed on the side and in front the cockpit. These flat spaces would be designed with accesseries in mind: net attachments, pole attachments, small waterproof containers (for pliers, cameras, knives, what have you), fish finders and so on. The idea being you could add these options later or buy it set up with the option to pick and choose and locate these things how you want.

It would have a large hatch either accessable by scooting forward or between your legs that you could put a pole in or whatever.

It would have an option of adding a side pontoon for stability and more storage that you could attach easily and adjust the distance for paddling or access.

In the rear you would have the open storage space that East Coasters seem to favor, but you could add a fitted water tight compartment that attaches into it for miscelanous storage or some specialized containers for specific purposes, rear pole holders, fish box, or live bait wells.

It would have a bit more rocker for turning but the rocker would be designed to become water line when you added weight making paddling more efficient as you added weight.

It would have the option of a steering rudder, motor kits and sails.

It would also have a hollow spot with removable cover and a waterproof access point to the fish finder transponder. And it would be really neat if you could swivel the transponder to aim it.

It would also have an optional battery holder and maybe some type of small optional power console for your radio, cell, phone, fish finder, GPS or small electic cooler (electric cooler could be attached in rear well) to keep your martini gin cold.

While I am kind of dreaming here, I think this is all economically feasible as well as techically feasible. Condsider the base kayak starts at 700 to 800 bucks and you gradually buy stuff over time and one day you look at your kayak and think oh my god, I have 6000 dollars into this thing? You don't think this can happen, talk to an old retired windsurfer, I started with a 400 dollar windsurfer and years later I have a garage with over 10,000 dollars of equipment (retail). Don't let my wife see this post)

[Jerry]

Being able to sight-fish would really be enhanced by having the area behind the seat reinforced so that it easily accomodates the occupants weight. There is the issue of the seat back...but somehow having a way to gain a little elevation without actually having to stand would be very nice.

- Jerry

[C.Salp]

surf launchability would be nice...

[mrsinbad]

I guess if this yak is gonna be the Ferrari of fishing yaks with all the bells and whistles, it may have to be built out of fiberglass, kevlar, carbon fiber, or a combination to keep the weight down to reasonable level. As a result, the price tag will have to be somewhere around the cost of a similar sized SIK.

mrsinbad http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JimW]

Ocean canoes are pretty quick

[dmac]

Guys check out www.sedakayak.com (http://www.sedakayak.com) and look at the revenge.16'6" @ 25" 39lbs in kevlar.Just change the top half and you have a home run.I might get it anyway.Joe V could paddle with this puppy for 10 hours at a pop instead of his usuall 8 http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Doug M

[mrsinbad]

dmac, interesting yak. At 39 lbs and $1,550, that ain't too bad for an all kevlar boat. So, if we can combine all the desired features in a hybrid plastic/kevlar yak, that weight may be (say 70# for a full plastic, 39# for a full kevlar, the average would be 54.5# and add 5# for other stuff) 60# and be priced in the low $1,000 might not be too bad for a premium featured yak. My doubts would be related to how durable this combination would be, especially with the issue of delamination that may occur where the kevlar is bonded to the plastic.

mrsinbad http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JimW]

I saw a review on Paddle.net where a guy was complaining his kevlar Revenge weighed 65 lbs but maybe he's a crank. Another guy weighed his at 44.

[beagle]

One thing to keep in mind when talking composites. Kevlar, f-glass etc., are "stronger", in some aspects, and no arguing lighter. But if you treat that boat the same way I treat my plastic yaks you won't be happy in the long run. I get out on breakwaters and rocks at times. I get in amongst the oyster beds. What I'm saying is composites don't hold up the same against abraision. Unless of course you have extra coats of epoxy and gel coats which adds weight and defeats the whole purpose of the material use in the first place. I have had two and got rid of both of them. I wore through the gel coats and into the matting. Couldn't bear the scuffing and scratching either. Sort of like taking your lincoln navigator four wheeling. Not many do.

[dmac]

I saw about 3 other reviews said said it weighed about 44lbs also

Doug M

[beagle]

One more item. Make this boat we are discussing originally on this topic, out of composite material, and we will be over $2300.

[JonS]

I think that the lack of being able to handle abrasion would be the problem, not the cost. But the abrasion is very important. Looks like plastic is the best material available at this time. Now we need a manufacturer to build the right yaks. The market is there.

baja55@optonline.net

[mrsinbad]

beagle,

If sedakayak can build an all kevlar yak for $1,550, surely there has to be some middle ground between that price and the $2,300 you quoted. I don't believe sedakayak is building their yaks as a loss leader.

mrsinbad http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MartinF]

Are you aware that Ocena Kayak has a model called the Sprinter ( http://www.canoesports.com.au/sprinter.htm ) that is only manufactured in their New Zealand factory. Would need a bigger hatch up front and tankwell at the back as changes to the deck.

I've never paddled this boat so don't know it's stablility as appropriate for a fishing platform.

[TailStalker]

Seda is built in Mexico on the "sweat shop rate of pay" for workers. Also want to comment that in the next year composite SOT's will be around from current companies as well as new ones too!

The cost of carbon and kevlar continues to drop in price making it more friendly for companies to use it in construction...I was IBEX a few weeks ago and vacuum infusion is now the big thing in boat building...not bagging.

I'm sure that a cored SOT made with Diab or ATC core mat and infusioned with S-Glass and kevlar will take a pretty good beating and be really light at the same time...it's gonna be nice to see a composite hatches on yaks as well.

Stay tuned gang...the world of yaking is gonna take a change!

Kev
www.castandpaddle.com (http://www.castandpaddle.com) http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It takes a heap of sense to write good nonsense- Mark Twain

[JonS]

There's a lot of interesting stuff around the corner. The sports evolving and I look forward to playing with the toys as they come along. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

baja55@optonline.net

[JEM]

Greetings all.

Just to let everyone know, I've started a small side business designing yaks and canoes to be built and sold as completed units and as plans to build your own.

A SOT yak is on the list...about #3 right now. I'm taking in all the advice and desires and trying to get a good blend.

Material will be fiberglass sandwhich with a marine plywood core. Lighter than plastic, and stronger too if you're using the biax cloth. I'll try to keep everyone up to date and post some rendered images as I go along.

Looking forward to everyone's input!

Matt

[JoeB]

Nice to hear from you! I'm in Durham currently and though I'm heading back up north for a few months, I'll be back here from February until the end of April. Lemme know if you need a field tester for any/everything. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Welcome to KFS.

Have kayak, will travel.
http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=4946071543

[CharlieW]

I'll put my "paddle" in on this topic for the older folks that yak fish.

Weight is a big problem. I'd prefer something under 40# rather than the 60# I now have with my T-120. It's great for stability and I'm satisfied with the speed but the weight is always a problem.

[floete]

check out the kevlar craft made by phoenix at www.pokeboat.com (http://www.pokeboat.com). I once owned the standard Poke; it didn't work well for fishing, being a kind of sit-in-side yak/canoe hybrid; but brother was that thing light.
Plus, it was indestructible. I treated that thing like crap -- much worse than I do my Scupper -- and while it scratches up and whatnot, and it got to be pretty ugly (it was ugly to begin with; i bought it off a vietnam vet who used it to go out in the water somewhere in the bronx and shoot guns), i couldn't ever manage to do any real damage to it.
Maybe you ought to contact the Phoenix people, JonS, and see if they're aware of the fishing-specific market. It seems like a quality operation, and it has been around a while.

[Scott]

Floete. I was thinking the same thing. they are light and durable. Not sure of the process, but sems it could be adadpted to a SOT. S

Yak, Yak, Yak...is that all I do?

Changed for the betterment of the board!!!!!

[floete]

Scott:
when I had my poke, i couldn't believe how tough it was. it flew off my car once -- no damage, just some paint scrapped off. they are wicked strong.
the poke people make regular sit inside kayaks as well as the poke hybrids. It would seem to me a natural extension for them to get into the SOTs.

[Scott]

I felt they were a bit more flexy than regular yaks, bit with some designing, I think they could make a rigid hull that would do very well. S

Yak, Yak, Yak...is that all I do?

Changed for the betterment of the board!!!!!

[vandy]

It's great fun to read all of these suggestions, and brings to mind a survey done a couple of years back during the designing of the Prowler. My .02 was rather like JonS's: a longer boat that could cruise the ocean swells on longer trips. I figured just stretching my Pro TW 2 1/2 feet would do it for me...not much more expense but expect a weight of 70# or more.

The extra length would need a rudder. Center hatch is good idea, but if it weakens the boat, I can do without...I rather enjoy sidling up to my forward hatch and sliding a fully-rigged 10-foot surfcaster out when I need it, then the trolling rod, then the ultralight, then the tackle bucket....

I still wouldn't pay $1000 for a fishing yak I beat the hell out of and leave in unsecured locations. I'm constantly on remote beaches taking hikes, so I like a granite color to blend in with rocks to prevent theft/joyriding.

I have to say that price is a main concern of mine. I buy and use one in the US during spring/summer/fall, then in winter bring it down to Baja, use some more and sell it. I lose about $200 on the transaction, but am always riding the newest SOTs for a full year on the deal.

A more expensive yak would also be harder to sell to the rental outfits, a major source of orders for a manufacturer.

[dmac]

Want fast.you can even get a sail that can reach at 13 mph with the out riggers. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

www.easyriderkayaks.com/eskimo18-6sk.htm (http://www.easyriderkayaks.com/eskimo18-6sk.htm)

[This message was edited by dmac on November 23, 2003 at 08:09 PM.]

[lconn4]

Just gimme a yak with the rod storage in the gunwales. Even if the reels are exposed. One rigged rod and reel at least 7ft. on each side. Get it in and out quick, very secure. Center hatch large enough for the most important things to me.... safety kit, small flat tackle box, and a camera. Any thing else can wait. Will this make the yak weigh much more? http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MarkT]

The high cost of a "fiberglass" kayak and the need to protect it from abrasion, etc. (unlike plastic kayaks) makes it a waste of money and time spent maintaining it (waxing it, etc.) if you're going to build it short and wide. You might as well use plastic because it's going to be slow anyway. The longer and narrower, the faster - it sounds too simple, but it's true!

[JEM]

Well she's almost ready. Any test paddlers near Greensboro, NC willing to take her out for a spin and give me some objective opinions?

http://www.jem.e-boat.net/prodimages/Kayak/SOT/CF350.jpg

[titusg]

I might drop down for a test drive. Is she self bailing?

[Oznibal]

You cannot have a fast fishing yak by definition since a fishing kayak needs to have a wide beam to provide high static stability, and a wide beam is the parameter that affects speed more than anything else - including the hull's length.
For example: A seakayak with a 25" wet beam generates 40% more Residual Resistance than a seakayak with a 21" beam. As you probably know, the residual resistance is what really matters at higher speeds.
So, unless you're talking trolling motor don't expect to see a fast fishing kayak, or be contented with a fast fishing kayak that's too tippy for the great majority of fishers to use for fishing.

Also, don't expect too much from composites: You may be able to polish composite surfaces to a higher degree than what's achievable with polyethylene, but the difference in speed is unlikely to be noticeable since overall Frictional Resistance is much less important than Residual Resistance.

A good solution within the kayak / SOT paradigm could be retractable outriggers that will be used while fishing and folded in when paddling- when the user can stabilize himself with his paddle.

[JEM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by titusg:
I might drop down for a test drive. Is she self bailing? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://jemwatercraft.com/images/prodimages/Kayak/SOT/CFScuppers.jpg

Yep. I should mention this one is not to the narrower specs discussed above. But with the topic title, I thought it would be a good place to put it.

I'm working on a 17' x 25" design as well. I think you can make it reasonably stable utilizing a bottom hull shape like the OK yaks.

[beagle]

Do I detect a hull with some shades of a Pungo Classic? http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[JEM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by beagle:
Do I detect a hull with some shades of a Pungo Classic? http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're close! First this first design, I took the floor section of the Tarpon and used the same deadrise/V-depth. Then I flared the sides. Future variations on the drawing board.

[MikeD]

http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif mrsinbad said it all.

WS, OK, whomever. Make it and I will buy it!

[Bluffer]

With all them options it would be no fun "rigging" your yak. That takes away the personallity.

[jclays]

i think if wilderness builds the tarpon 160 with the same tankwell as the tarpon 14 and puts the round hatch somewhere in the position of their wilderness freedom it would be a great yak. as far as hull construction. i like the way that old town makes their hulls with the 3 layer process that has the thin foam sandwiched by a thin inner and outter hull. i have 2 old towns and the hulls are very ridgid and quite.

[ruge13]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oznibal:
You cannot have a fast fishing yak by definition since a fishing kayak needs to have a wide beam to provide high static stability, and a wide beam is the parameter that affects speed more than anything else - including the hull's length.
For example: A seakayak with a 25" wet beam generates 40% more Residual Resistance than a seakayak with a 21" beam. As you probably know, the residual resistance is what really matters at higher speeds.
So, unless you're talking trolling motor don't expect to see a fast fishing kayak, or be contented with a fast fishing kayak that's too tippy for the great majority of fishers to use for fishing.

Also, don't expect too much from composites: You may be able to polish composite surfaces to a higher degree than what's achievable with polyethylene, but the difference in speed is unlikely to be noticeable since overall Frictional Resistance is much less important than Residual Resistance.

A good solution within the kayak / SOT paradigm could be retractable outriggers that will be used while fishing and folded in when paddling- when the user can stabilize himself with his paddle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that it would be dificult with a SOT but completly disagree that a fishing kayak has to be wide. You narrow down a SOT and you have a surf ski. A boat that is not inherently stable, with no weight will not keep itself upright without help (outrigger or paddle) like a skulling craft.

Composite boats are fast because they are more rigid not because they are smooth. The fastest racing boats are light and actually have no clear coat, just raw material so friction is not a concern. They do not absorb paddle stroke energy or flex in the hull like a Poly boat does. The difference is noticeable in rougher conditions. You can also play with the weight by changing cores in the kevlar or glass. Or by eliminatn things like the clear coat. By doing thosee things you reduce the point pressure resistance though. You make a boat for paddling, not fishing, and certainly not one you are landing and launching in the surf or over a rocky beach. If you want lightest possible than you are talking Carbon. Check out Epic boats. They have a prototype carbon racing SIK thats 18' long and will top out around 9lbs. They also have a paddle that will go 220-250cm thats incredible, the lightest paddle I have ever felt, and indestructable.

I believe stability is overrated. It is a more novice concern I think. As people grow with the sport, they talk les and les about stability and will say the same thing. Also, if you are making a fast boat, you are not making a boat that everyday fisherman are going to use anyway. Stability is more of a tool than a necessity. A 23" wide boat can pull 60lb floro leaders from rocky bottoms in 100 ft of water cod fishing and not have a problem. Keep the rod low, and parralel with the boat. Let a fish turn the boat, not roll the boat. Use the fish, don't fight it. Letting the fish tow the kayak will put more pressure on her than you ever will with a line and rod. If I had the budget I would be fishing in an Current Designs Andromeda, or a WS Tempest. Far more narrow than 23"

A fast SIK reduces resistance with a narrow width and has a long wetted surface. Long you can do in a SOT, but Narrow you can't. Reason is because narow boats are inherently stable, and want to return to a neutral state upright because they have balast. Balast that is below the water line. You. SOT's do not have that. You would have to creave a V hull and drop it low with weight to simulate those characteristics of a SIK. Looks like JEM is doing that with a hard chine design. I would also guess that by dropping below 25" in width you will start deepening the cockpit so even though you are still exposed, the depth more and more resembles a SIK. Where is the line? When do you drop low enough that you are now a SIK? JEM I noticed you said you flared the sides. I assume this added width. Do you see a way to eliminate the need to flare the sides creating a narrow profile?

Narrow high volume touring boats (expedition SIKS) have balast weights behind the cockpit when not fully loaded down with gear for this reason.

If you were to try to immitate the efficiency of a fast SIK you would lose many of the characteristics you list as advantages to SOT's. Things like fast easy re-entry. Wading, Standing, etc. All this is now the same as a SIK, sans pumping out. Do you really want that? Also, many of you say you don;t like thigh straps, but narrow the boat down to where bracing is inevitable (like a fast SIK) and you won't paddle without them.

Once you have that down, the next step is hull shape. There are significant differences between fish form and suede form kayaks. Fish form has more volume in the bow ahead of the cockpit, suede in the stern behind. Recreational kayaks in general are fish form. Fast touring and racing boats, Suede form. A suede form SOT I would love to see. Most are fish form with the widest part right at your but, not behind it. The newer Tarpons are more of a hybrid and gettng ccloser to a Suede form. To see what I mean, take a look at a recreational boat, like a pungo, perception america's, acadia's etc...and then look at a Current Designs Gulfstream (obvious suede form).

[Oznibal]

Ruge,
You're sound like a real sportsman, but the great majority of fishers don't have your capabilities, and stability is the biggest concern not only in fishing kayaks but in all recreational boats as well, and that's the bulk of the market.
As for rigidity, I agree to your point but I don't have this problem in my W1 since its hulls are just 6" wide and it's made from High Density Polyethylene (HDPE), which is more rigid than the Medium Denstity Polyethylene (MDPE) from which most kayaks are molded.
As for the Swede Vs. Fish form, that belongs to Nick Schade's kayak design forum ( Kayak Design Forum (http://www.kayakforum.com))but as far as I understand both forms are elliptical while parabolic forms are more efficient in speed terms.

[Mike Homan]

After reading all these posts, I keep thinking a jet ski is the answer... http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mike

[The Riddler]

How fast do we realy need to go? I will just lazily paddle in my extreme and catch fish for now. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Santiago II]

OK,

So based on what's out there now, whats the most fishable fast SOT, Heritage Expedition or the Seda?

I wonder if you could take the Expedition hull design and flare out the edges for more stability and still keep the edges out of the water when paddling. maybe even hinge the stern skeg for an internal rudder? Just a thought.

[Scott]

SII fill the skeg region with a resin, past where you want the rudder, then cut it like a rudder. attache a couple fo gudegeons and you're set. S

[Oznibal]

Interesting questions.
1. How fast? -In my opinion as fast as possible, since speed determines how FAR you can go.
2. How stable? -In my opinion fishing requires a hyper-stable platform since I want to stand in my boat and cast in full confidence.

Is it possible to achieve both in any kayak design?- No.
Is it possible to achieve both in another design design? -Yes, and my W1 from Wavewalk is the proof.

[ruge13]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oznibal:
the great majority of fishers don't have your capabilities, and stability is the biggest concern not only in fishing kayaks but in all recreational boats as well, and that's the bulk of the market.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree, most do have the ability, it's just that most don't share the Lack of common sense that I have http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

I agree about the market nitch, however a fast boat in general, SIK or SOT, does not apeal to many fishing markets if Stability is a large issue. Fast boats are not stable without a paddle. I mentioned those things because if your true intention is to build a SOT purely for speed and then use it to fish, you lose some of the stated advantages to gain what you can in speed. I agree 100% that most people will not be willing to give that up. But if you want speed, thats what you will need to do.

You start going below 25" or so and you lose the ability to stand, or get back on quickly and easily. Especially in rougher water. You also lose storage space without bulkheads.

By fast, I mean a boat that can comfortably, with marginal effort maintain a cruising speed over 5kts at a longer distance. I agree that if the average guy is doing 3 to 5 miles a trip he probably doesn't need a fast boat. But you start hitting 20 miles a day for a week straight, and you want a fast boat. You will need to drop below 25" to do that, and you will also need to modify the hull on a SOT as JEM explained. Obviously not for everyone, and probably not the smartest busines move for reasons you explained. But if its speed you desire, I think thats the line you need to cross.

[MarkT]

The sit-on-top in my opinion is going to be the main type of kayak used for activities such as fishing and diving in the foreseeable future. A sit-on-top useful for fishing is also going to be a slower craft than a sit-inside. I take my sit-on-top (Scupper Pro) diving and fishing, sometimes far offshore or away from the launch area and don't find speed to be that important (especially after investing in a surf ski that's fast, but not a practical fishing kayak). A kayak is never going to be really "fast." Take your time and enjoy yourself. Get there an hour early or leave an hour late - it'll make up for the "speed" you think you need so desperately. Also, there are many launch areas, and you don't have to paddle that far if you don't want to. I think something the length and width of my Scupper Pro is a great compromise between speed and stability. I enjoy all the technical stuff although most people won't get that deep into it.

[Oznibal]

The SOT was invented in California the late 60s as an elaborate paddleboard for divers, and it really does the job very well if you don't mind getting wet (which divers don'thttp://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )
Some 25% of kayaks sold are SOTs, and that has been the ratio in recent years.
The SOT is popular in warm-water / warm-weather regions, but as you go North its popularity is decreasing.
As a platform for fishing it offers both advantages (Portable, Self-Bailing, Affordable) over other boats, as well as turn-offs - mainly Stability, Comfort and the "Wet-Ride" issue that limit its use and popularity.

[Scott]

"The SOT is popular in warm-water / warm-weather regions, but as you go North its popularity is decreasing."

I disagree Oz, in fact, I'l go further and state that because of sites like this, the information is made available to demonstrate how to safely use a yak in cold water conditions. You are as safer, if not safer, dressed properly on an SOT, than improperly prepared in a SIK. Now I'm not sure if you'retalking Alaska north, but for New York'ish north, the SOT is still the way to go. Many people just don;t know it yet. S

[mrsinbad]

Just underscores the fact that designing a high-performance kayak is a series of compromises.

Oznibal, the debate between elliptical vs parabolic hull cross sections (I assume this is what you were referring to) is very similar to the SIK/SOT debate. However, if you are looking at these hull designs from a plan view (from the top), fish form or Swede form hulls are neither elliptical or parabolic. Overall, I think the answer is that it depends on what you want out of the hull, at different stresses, at different speeds, etc. Again, the compromise thing...

Ruge, you should look at a OK Prowler, Cobra Wave Witch, Emotion Charger, if you want to see a Swede form hull for a SOT. Also, I have not made a specific effort to note if the recreational kayaks of most manufacturers are fish form, but you did not mention that many are symmetrical as well. From my recollection, Cobra SOT's are more symmetrical than fish form, and my Tourer is one that is symmetrical. Maybe in the SOT world, most manufactures have not made the same efforts as they do in designing their SIK, and therefore have taken the easy way out by designing symmetrical planform kayaks. I dunno, maybe that is why [shrug shoulders].

[JimW]

There's a million things to consider and they all lead to compromises. Hard chined vs. round chines, length, beam, rocker, entry, "fullness", you name it. I'm not so sure fish vs. swede is that big of a deal since to go to any extreme in either at all involves compromises most boats don't want to make.

[Oznibal]

mrsinbad,
I feel I shouldn't get too deeply into the SOT/SIK debate since after all I'm using neither of these boats. I just pointed to a statistical fact and explained the reason for it, after what local dealers (MA) explained to me http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for parabolic/elliptical, it's when you look from the top (Waterplane Area). The parabolic form tends to have the sides more "parallel" to each other while the elliptical (Swede or Fish) is more reminding of an egg shape (curved). This relates to Block Coefficient, Prismatic Coefficient etc.

The main advantage of kayaks, canoes and other mono-hull boats is that they are relatively simple to make.
The price for this extreme simplicity is that you need to make more compromises, of which the "Speed vs Stability" is the most problematic.
For example: Catamarans are both faster and more stable than comparable sailing or motor boats, but since they are more difficult to make they are also more expensive.

[The Riddler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The SOT is popular in warm-water / warm-weather regions, but as you go North its popularity is decreasing.
As a platform for fishing it offers both advantages (Portable, Self-Bailing, Affordable) over other boats, as well as turn-offs - mainly Stability, Comfort and the "Wet-Ride" issue that limit its use and popularity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Its popular in my book. What are we talking about in stability? I can stand and cast have a wrestling match if I wanted too. It has enough secondary to survive in the snot. Wet ride? Not with my Malibu Extreme. Zero water up the scuppers and nothing comes over the gunwhales within reason. Excess water from the paddle is a reality, but dont we all dress for the water regardless of sot or sink? I suppose you can say some SOTS have these drawbacks but not all. I think the worst drawback for most IMO is weight.

[ruge13]

I am not completely sold on the fish vs suede form concepts anyway. Touring companies like, current designs, Nigel Foster's, Perception, etc talk about it, but thats because they already have a narrow crafy I think. SOT's are not narrow. The majority of the fishing population are newer fisherman, not paddlers. They want stability over fast nimble performance. SOT's offer that. I don't think the market will change. I think Ridler is right though, they are popular. At least fir the die hard fishing community. True, you see more SIKs that SOT's around, but right now there are more paddlers around, and stores that sell boats to paddlers, not fisherman using kayaks, and stores that sell fishing kayaks. I think that equilibrium will change eventually in the North East. Give the sport a few more years, this is all still very new to people. Companies are making kayaks built to get people interested in the market. Wide, easy to use, stable boats. As the fishing public starts to evolve into paddlers as well as fisherman with experience on the water, I think you will start to see some narrow faster boats emerge into the market. Right now kayak companies that design fast narrow boats are old school. They still believe SOT's are a tourist boat meant for weekend warriors who aren't serious about paddling and don't want to take the time to learn to paddle a sleek narrow unstable boat (not my opinion). (by learn I don't mean learnt o padle forward, I mean condition your body to respond to the boat absent of your mind telling you to lean or brace, that takes time) When Companies keep up with the sport, like WS has been trying to do, each year you get better and faster boats. Look at the new generation pungos, and tarpons vs thier older models...much better boats. Give it time, it will happen thanks to people like JEM, and you guys for being hard core about the sport.
Look what happened with Mountain bikes oevr the last 10 years. They started with rugged frames, heavy, and old school designers made them that way. Because they took people who rode mountains and built bikes for them. Then Road racers started gettign in on mountain biking and all of a sudden you have titanium frams, lightweight, faster bikes, and hybrid models. They same will happen in kayaks...

[JimW]

SOTs and fishing may be a new a growing sport but kayak technology isn't. I have begun to think the stability and speed of say a T16 or a Prowler is just fine. I've fished a sea kayak and surfed it, taken some stripes over 20 and some blues in mid teens, it can be done. The stability of a 23 inch beam yak is in your hips, really, if you're fishing, because you have to put the paddle down once in a while. Technology can bring me one that's lighter weight, for sure, but I'm not convinced I need a faster SOT. If it's a need for speed then maybe it needs to be a SIK and you make trade offs. You consider the conditions, partners, what tackle, etc and pick a boat from your quiver.

[ketozen]

thanks jon for spelling out what i have been looking for
of course most of you have read that i will be on a prowler very soon
but man that would make me one happy camper no! happy sailor no!
happy kayak fisher yah! thats it

[lconn4]

We start with a Tricycle, then bicycle with trainging wheels, then the bike. Do'nt see many starting out on a unicycle! http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Oznibal]

Iconn,
Funny you say that - Somebody once told me that the W boat is to the kayak what the bicycle is to the monocycle http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[lconn4]

I can understand where serious paddlers might roll their eyes when they see a sit on top coming by. They have spent years learning how to paddle and consider themselves kayakers. Now we have this whole new group of fishermen that consider paddling just a means to an end.

Kinda steals some of their mojo when a newbie is seen standing up in his new yak! http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Oznibal]

Yeap, instead of just being happy about new possibilities offered in paddling, fishing and recreation http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
http://www.wavewalk.com/Y%20PS%20Sea%2001%20256x171.jpg http://www.wavewalk.com/Y+N%20PDS+PD%20256x171.jpg http://www.wavewalk.com/Y%20WW%20PS%2001%20256x171.jpg

[adson]

Shaun, I think you are right that we will eventually see a faster fishing yak design. I an going to try to get close to that need with a S&G plywood boat. I was thinking of a hull form that is halfway between a hard chine design ( CLC boats) and a Heritage fisherman.
Maybe a 15.5 ft length or 16. The plywood constructon solves the weight problem. My biggest questions is stability. I don't need a boat any more stable than my current 23.5 wide CLC 17LT. But how much wider would the hull have to be to offset the effect of raising the center of gravity due to the SOT concept ? I am thinking of 26.5 width to compensate.

[JEM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adson:
Shaun, I think you are right that we will eventually see a faster fishing yak design. I an going to try to get close to that need with a S&G plywood boat. I was thinking of a hull form that is halfway between a hard chine design ( CLC boats) and a Heritage fisherman.
Maybe a 15.5 ft length or 16. The plywood constructon solves the weight problem. My biggest questions is stability. I don't need a boat any more stable than my current 23.5 wide CLC 17LT. But how much wider would the hull have to be to offset the effect of raising the center of gravity due to the SOT concept ? I am thinking of 26.5 width to compensate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adson,

I'm working on a design like you mention except mine is 17' long by 25" wide. Drop me an e-mail at info@jemwatercraft.com if you'd like to discuss some things and maybe have you put out a prototype.

[Oznibal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adson:
My biggest questions is stability. I don't need a boat any more stable than my current 23.5 wide CLC 17LT. But how much wider would the hull have to be to offset the effect of raising the center of gravity due to the SOT concept ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adson,
You can try Nick Schade's kayak design forum: kayak design forum (http://kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Design/index.cgi)

[yackrich]

How about a fishing kayak under 40 lbs. If you use wood & keep it under 14 ft., maybe it can be done. Why do you need to be going faster than a Tarpon 160 anyway?? I have a 160. Its a good boat, but toooooo heavy. A 14 footer will get you into most inlets if you eddy hop correctly. Weight is everything!!

Rich

[JEM]

A 14' around 40 lbs could be done. The first one I prototyped, 15'6 and 31" wide, is 60 pounds but I didn't use the best plywood and had to use some heavier fiberglass. I strongly feel a careful builder could achieve, of that design, 50-52 pound if they use Okuome.

Couple other lengths of that same style in the works including a 14' x 28". Haven't run the numbers yet but it'll be close to 40 uses the best materials.

[ketozen]

i posted this under the ok forum, but it belongs here. jons maybe a forum section of its own would take off ??

i love the current prowler, but many know, that i picked up a seadart/fisherman and the fisherman paddles so much smoother due to its narrow wet surface, thus creating less primary stab.
what if and hopefuly ocean kayak is listening (cause i belive that competition will heat up)
they add another foot, narrow the water contact surface about two inches, i believe this will speed up the rig, slightly lesson pri stab (but not by much maybe not at all) and by narrowing this will compensate for the added weight of the extra foot in length.
deck design already works so basically just streach the prowler into the new improved super prowler
i say lets start putting out enough ideas that they listen to this forum and start building what fisherman or fisherpersons really want
lets face we want it all
maybe jons would consider a forum catagory of new design ideas

[ketozen]

hey you s&g plywood guys did you ever see a design called the toto it is an open kayak design although too short i thick if extended and a little width, i once thought of taking this design putting in all measurements into my cad system and thentrying like a 15% enlargement and building out luan for a cheap test boat chop and mod then build out of 3 0r 4mm okume

[JimW]

That looks interesting. How big is plus 15 pct?

[Redfish 7]

Hi my name is Bryan and i would like to buy a kayak to fish and do small camping trips out of is there any one who will email me at bryan.mcpherson@baptistcollege.edu to let me know where to buy a kayak on a budget of 500 dollars that will suit my needs and also if you know anyone wanting to sell a used one let me know also thanks guys

[ketozen]

15% would be just about 15 ft long
as the boat is 13 ft long 30 in wide
i see on the designers site that he streached it to 15 feet leaving it at the same at chines , he added a two foot section in the middle. the website is below

http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/1apr03.htm#Toto

[rbl]

I'm going to throw in a twist to this idea. I've been running the idea of a catamaran around in my mind. Not like the Kiwi kayak. Say, hulls 12" wide by 16' long with a 'platform' in the middle. With the higher seating position, you could go wider without the sacrifice that the Drifter or Ride have for performance. The additional stability of the two hulls would be a great benefit for those that may want to stand. Yes, you'd have to go with a longer than conventional paddle. Ideas?

[ketozen]

in my opinion, you would now be in a cat not a kayak, you would also sacrifice turning ability, just as hindered going from a v-hull boat to say a pontoon boat, what drew me to this sport is the love of the kayak and the love of fishing. and although sots are a step away from traditional yaks, they maintain the basic hull form

well like i said it is only my opinion

[machete]

Late post to The Riddler. Your post on 5/19 was very good but your worst draw back isn't your weight but your a red sok fan.lol ''BABE''

[YakinForSalmon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rbl:
I'm going to throw in a twist to this idea. I've been running the idea of a catamaran around in my mind. Not like the Kiwi kayak. Say, hulls 12" wide by 16' long with a 'platform' in the middle. With the higher seating position, you could go wider without the sacrifice that the Drifter or Ride have for performance. The additional stability of the two hulls would be a great benefit for those that may want to stand. Yes, you'd have to go with a longer than conventional paddle. Ideas? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check these out: Easy Rider is a company in Seattle that is now building a "SOT Version of their traditional ocean touring Kayaks". Add the outrigger pontoons, a sail, and a deck, and you are on the way!

http://www.easyriderkayaks.com/eskimo17sk.htm

http://www.easyriderkayaks.com/cr_system.htm

[mrsinbad]

Bump... there has been some discussions on this subject on other forums, so I though I would bring this back for further discussion.

[Riverwader]

I think if you guys want a super sea kayak a maker is going to have to make a mainstream allaround yak first.

There are roughly 35 to 40 million fisherpersons in this country. So there is definatley a market for a fishing kayak. But there are only 6 to 9 million saltwater fisherpersons. Once you factor some variables out of these two numbers (age, health, activity levels) your left with smaller numbers (just because you fish don't mean you want to paddle a yak to do it)

What I am trying to get at is the market for a fast seaworthy fishing yak is signifcantly smaller than an all around fishing machine.

What if a yak 12 to 13 foot long could launch through the surf as easy as it meandered down a fast stream, had good tracking and cruised steady and fast, a center hatch, large tank well, stable, handled ruff stuff well, and a price under 600 bucks, how many would sell? Even if you sold through only a fraction of either estimates it would be a sales success.

I'd guess Fishing Kayak makers today estimate how many boats there going to sell of a model before they even fill the first mold, they have to to ensure a return on investment (labor, materials, advertising) They know if they sell x number of boats they start to make a profit.

I think they are selling themselves short (pun intended) You all would agree the manufactures need more r&d to hone a kayaks fishing and performance abilities right. Well I say thats not enough! Marketing!!!!! Kayaks marketed correctly will hit critcal mass. Kayaks are only marketed toward the hardcore fisherman. They got to make average joe want one. With the right advertising kayaks can be pushed on the 35 to 40 million anglers, to see how many will BITE (more pun hehehe) What if only a Million Bit????

I'm talking a single model here. I have been in retail for a while, although I don't know much about Kayaks I know if you sale a large amount of something it is a good thing. Spending the money on advertising could be very profitable (risky too) as long as the numbers were managed, and the ad campaigns were well thought out and targeted correctly.

What does all this have to do with a fast SoT fishing YAk? More yaks sold = more money = more R&D for smaller markets. Not to mention the lessons in production eficentcies a manufacturer would learn along the way and the economics of mass production ( read cheaper)

There are a lot of benifits tf Kayak fishing we just need to let more people know about them. But that shouldnt be all the companies do. They have to make guys/gals need to have a kayak. This can be done a lot of ways.

I remember watching ranger boat commercials when I was a kid. The boat was shown on a glass smooth lake on plane flying through the water. Does going 70 mph let you catch more fish, no it don't, but I sure did want one of those boats.

Well thats my 2 errr...maybe 4 cents on things.

[ProwlerGuy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JEM:
Well she's almost ready. Any test paddlers near Greensboro, NC willing to take her out for a spin and give me some objective opinions?

http://www.jem.e-boat.net/prodimages/Kayak/SOT/CF350.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Waaaayyyyy tooo much freeboard!

[scwafish]

This looks like the "answer" to me. I want one of these bad! http://www.cobrakayaks.com/expedition.html

[mrsinbad]

Sam, thanks for your input and perspective... The thread was started to address a void for a long high performance fishing exclusive yak. There are many fine and suitable shorter yaks out there, but for those folks that need/want to cover greater distances, a long slim yak is one solution that comes to mind. There has been discussions regarding Heritage Fisherman Pro/Sea Dart, and even the Cobra Expedition, but recreational kayaks being adapted to fishing is not the same as a yak built from the groud up specifically for fishing. I believe that as the sport of yak fishing expands, there will be many current newbies/intermediates ready to move to a higher performance yak so they can explore and find new fishing spots. From a retail perspective, immediate profitability or volume may not exist, but it will definitely be there in the future. As yak fishers we need to tell the manufacturers what we need to continue to expand/evolve the sport and to push the envelope.

For me, with the current SOT yak models available, I don't think a well thought out high performance fishing yak exists, and therein lies an opportunity.

[Santiago II]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mrsinbad:
Sam, thanks for your input and perspective... The thread was started to address a void for a long high performance fishing exclusive yak. There are many fine and suitable shorter yaks out there, but for those folks that need/want to cover greater distances, a long slim yak is one solution that comes to mind. There has been discussions regarding Heritage Fisherman Pro/Sea Dart, and even the Cobra Expedition, but recreational kayaks being adapted to fishing is not the same as a yak built from the groud up specifically for fishing. I believe that as the sport of yak fishing expands, there will be many current newbies/intermediates ready to move to a higher performance yak so they can explore and find new fishing spots. From a retail perspective, immediate profitability or volume may not exist, but it will definitely be there in the future. As yak fishers we need to tell the manufacturers what we need to continue to expand/evolve the sport and to push the envelope.

For me, with the current SOT yak models available, I don't think a well thought out high performance fishing yak exists, and therein lies an opportunity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ditto

[Santiago II]

The Cobra Expedition looks like a good go fast boat but at 23.5 at the waterline, I wonder how it would handle fishing. The Heritage Expedition (now the Sea Dart 17) is 23" below the sponsons but, sit 28" at the sponsons. When you paddle, the hull rides up and the sponsons are out of the water. The secondary stability in the sponsons makes all the difference in the world when fishing.

[bassmanpete]

Freshwater guys have the same problem as adapting a rec design to fishin is doable but still a compromise. I know fishing yak markets are small, but seems to me there is a place for a boat designed with fishermen in mind first, that can be adapted of have the fishing extras left off and still sell well to the paddling public.

For example, many current boats have curved surfaces which make mounting fishin extras a fascinating exericse in geometry. Does a recreational paddler really care as much as we do whether the side of the cockpit is concavely shaped or has a flat angle to make mounting a rod holder easier?

Just little touches like that can make a boat so much easier for fishermen to like, and yet still allow lots of non fisherpersons to like it well enough to paddle it. Both groups probably have people in them who want a higher perfomance hull below the water line.

[Riverwader]

Santiago II,

What I was clumsely trying to say is, manufacturers are less likly to develop models specific to fishing if the expected sales numbers are low. You guys want a highly tuned sea kayak, I understand, what I was trying to say is the kayak you want is even a smaller niche than a shorter more manuverable one. A long super fast sea kayak is not going to allow fishing of smaller streams and lakes (as easy anyhow) But a short YAk can fish tight spots and launch through the surf and fish open water.

What I was suggesting was a company take a risk and spend some dough on marketing. If kayaks become a fishing tool that anglers want to use all over the country, then you will have a larger target for marketing other kayaks with narrower use utility. If kayaks are sold to a million anglers, many of wich may be first time purchasers, chances are they will out grow there yak and want to upgrade or aquire a boat that has diffrent capablities, like a long fast sea kayak. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I beleive the markets are there, both the large general fishing, and the smaller open water fishing kayak, they need to be worked up a bit by some advertising.

I have been looking for a boat for 5 years now. Not haveing money for a power boat( or a truck to pull a trailer) I needed somthing small. I looked into several kinds of water craft, one man pontoons, canoes, inflatables, jonboats, small plastic bass boats, and drift boats. The only craft that meeted all my needs was a kayak. A kayak can fit on top af a car, I can launch and fish by my self, capable in shallow water, travels up stream/against the wind well, can carry my gear, and has the added bonus of fishing the beach, somthing the other crafts would not do at all. Even though kayaks were my answer I only accidentaly found out about fishing kayaks through researching other craft. I beleive there are a lot of anglers like me stuck on the bank who want to get on the water. Someone just needs to show them the way to the water.

What I am saying is it would be more likly a kayak maker make a fast sot fishing sea kayak if the market was bigger, and that a kayak manufacture could grow the market through the marketing and sale of a good all around fishing kayak.

I think the makers are waiting for the market to grow rather than being a little more proactive.

If only people who paddle or are around kayaks know about fishing kayaks then the fishing kayak market is going to grow slowly. If a effort is made to reach out to the general public, it could expand fishing kayaks to a whole new level.



Just my opinion http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Santiago II]

Sam,

You may be right from a marketing perspective if you're waiting for the niche to develop. But, those of us who have been doing it a while are seeing the evolution of that high performance market right in front us. I also don't think it's a small segment, just an unexploited one.

On top of that, entry level kayak fishing hasn't hit saturation yet, doesn't even show signs of leveling, and there are still improvements to be made at that point. So why not think about the emerging markets.

As the market matures, more and more, people are going to want to upgrade to a faster boat, heck there are probably people who would start there to begin with. While the entry market has dozens of boats, there really is no significant competition in the fast kayak market. Even if it's a fraction of the market, it's still an underdeveloped niche.

So, since it's just one type of boat in a kayak manufaturers fleet, and since it's a relatively unfilled niche, somebody should be out there defining it, If for no other reason than to get ahead of the curve.

[JonS]

The Cobra Exp. isn't the yak we want. I've paddled it and its far from an ideal kayak for fishing. I'd much rather have a Prowler or Tarpon.

The kayak fishing market, in time if handled properly, will dwarf the recreational kayak market. The sport is exploding with practically no help from the manufacturers. There are many more potential kayak fishermen then paddlers.

So building a faster kayak for fishing is not the small niche market that some think. If a kayak were to be built that is fast, stable and possess good fishing ergonomics it would be a big seller. As more kayak fishermen wish to increase their range and reach more distant places.

[scwafish]

So what in particular don't you like about the CE. I looks like a lean, fast boat that is riggable, and rudderable
http://www.bloodydecks.com/photopost/data/500/1530101_0101-med.JPG

Seems to be able to handle large pelagic fish. These YT are as gamey as anything out there!
http://www.bloodydecks.com/photopost/data/500/1530101_0113-med.JPG

[Santiago II]

CE looks like a great boat but having the HE, I would think the CE would be a boat for the experienced paddler who has the right physiology for the boat. I would love to paddle one.

[dmac]

I have paddled it before.It is a very fast kayak that cuts through chop like a knife.I would not mind it for daytime fishing.But for night time the stability is not what I would want.I am 6'1" and it seems that you would be better off in that yak if you are bottom heavy http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=182102653 (big rump) or a little shorter,too fish it at night and be comfortable.


Doug M

[joeykayak]

I am going to take another long hard look at this kayak and I think I might fish it this coming season. We will also bring one to the jamaica Bay tornament for guys to play with.

[Riverwader]

Santiago II

I see your point.

But historically those that are first in a new market take a loss. I would advise a manufacturer to be careful, which they probably already are, short production runs and small amounts of targeted advertising make fishing kayaks profitable even now.

"entry level kayak fishing hasn't hit saturation yet, doesn't even show signs of leveling"

Yes, I believe this is true (and was saying the same in my post, more or less)) but it also supports my point, if the entry level boat market was larger and more developed then the making of other more specialized boats would be an easier decision (and more profitable) for the manufacturer.

And yes as you and Jons point out the fishing kayak market has grew rapidly. But try to put that in perspective with this comparison 2+2 is 4 which is a 100% gain but 4 is still a small sum. While there was a big increase in boats (kayaks) sold over last year compare that to how many canoes were sold or power boats for that matter. And then think of the 40 million anglers in this country.

When I spoke of the fast sot fishing boat as a smaller market I was meaning relative to the entry level boat market. Not to mention fresh water anglers out number salt water anglers almost 4 to one. Even then I still think A fast sot kayak for fishing will sell able enough now to turn a profit. A manufacturer could produce and sell through a few thousand easy. If a company would prime consumers (Fishermen) with some well thought out marketing and the sale of a really good entry level boat (wouldn't want to put off people with a bad or underperforming product) that few thousand fast sot kayak sales would become tens of thousands or greater.

I hope I don't seem combative. If I do it is not intentional. I had a philosophy class last semester and had to apply logic on a daily basis in class discussions. My reasoning maybe going a little haywire do to lack of stimulation. http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=633102653

I want to see kayak fishing thrive and not just for the fisherman because kayak fishing benefits
Not just catches but the environment as well. http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=811107247

[mrsinbad]

I really don't know what is involved, but if enough of us chips in some seed capital, I would love to form a LLC or LLP just to produce this high performance fishing kayak. There is a demand for this, and definitely a market to sell to. This venture will control the market and be uncontested for at least a few/several years.

I know there are not many rotomolders around that can handle a +15' kayak, and making the mould is quite expensive, but we have some folks here on this site that can guide us along. It may come down to the adage... "If you want something done right, you're gonna have to do it yourself." What do you guys think?

[Santiago II]

Sam,

You're putting a lot of good thought into this and that's always a good thing.

The problem with this discussion is that we have too many unknown variables. We don't know the actual percentage of potential marketshare as a percent of the overall kayak market. So most of this conversation remains theoretical.

SO let's get hyperanalytical for a moment. First we have to estimate the percent of the kayak market that is fertile ground for this fast fishing kayak.

Primarily big water kayakers, Primarily salt, but also big bodies of freshwater.

You've got experienced kayak fishermen who want to upgrade.
You've got entry level kayak fishermen who want to start with the biggest and baddest.
You've got experienced kayak purists who want the versatility to fish, but hate the whole "floating dock" thing. They can be brought over by this kind of boat.
On top of that, you've got all the kayak fishermen who get sucked along by the latest "new thing". They're going to buy because everyone else is talking about it.

Now we don't really know what to total sales of these groups represent. But we do know that a handful of kayak manufactures have anywhere from 5 -12 SOTs in their stables right now. In addition to their fishing boats and play boats, some make dedicated surf boats, dedicated sprint boats, and a few other speciality SOT items. Most of these specialty boats are in fairly saturated markets to begin with.

Given all that, the fast, fishing SOT market may be a small share but I'll bet it's larger than sprint and surf boats. And it's definitely growing. It's definitely worth one new boat in a company's product line.

The niche will never be as big as entry level play boats, but it's big enough, and right now essentially devoid of competition. There are dozens of entry level play boats right now. Just that fact alone would make me as a manufacturer want to get out in front of this fast fishing boat market.

When you look at the relatively low expense of creating a new boat (it's not like creating a car line) there's been quite a bit of recent turnover of specific products by every kayak manufacturer. Everyone knows the Tarpons are wildly successful, but there's also the Equators, and the Freedoms, and who can forget the "Two-can" (one WS rep told me "One might but two definitely can't").

I think what's stopping the manufacturers right now is their lack of understanding of their market, bad advice from pseudo-experts, and the fear that they will create the wrong boat. Also, if nobody makes this boat, then the yakfisher has to buy something else anyway. Many companies are soaking up the profits and enjoying the present market with maxed production capacity. Why mess with a good thing... Because the good companies always have to think ahead.

[mrsinbad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Santiago II:

Why mess with a good thing... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To make it even better!

[Santiago II]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mrsinbad:
I really don't know what is involved, but if enough of us chips in some seed capital, I would love to form a LLC or LLP just to produce this high performance fishing kayak. There is a demand for this, and definitely a market to sell to. This venture will control the market and be uncontested for at least a few/several years.

I know there are not many rotomolders around that can handle a +15' kayak, and making the mould is quite expensive, but we have some folks here on this site that can guide us along. It may come down to the adage... "If you want something done right, you're gonna have to do it yourself." What do you guys think? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right behind ya' on this one Ed

[joeykayak]

It does seem that the 12' to 14'fishing kayak range is well represented by many companies and coming out with a fast yak would own that niche and Jon and myself at one time thought about trying to build one ourselves because we just felt from a market standpoint there could be very little competition. I just wonder how many people really are looking for a craft to extend their range? - I know for me its very important but what percentage of us would benefit from a faster kayak in there fishing needs. Could it really be the mold issue that is stoping companies from building this kayak.

[dmac]

I wonder what the potential of the Hobie system is with a faster hull.I paddled around in The outback for a day at the cape.I loved the system but hated the hull.Imagine that drive system with larger paddles and a hull like the heritage expedition that Santiago 2 has http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=811107247If Someone wants to donate a pedel system I am all set to start chopping apart my Tarpon 16 http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Doug M

[Ken L]

DMac, I think you might want to check with Hobie before you ruin your 160. I don't know this but my gut is telling me that the Mirage Drive as currently configured, will have a problem at higher speeds. I don't think there is a yak out there than can beat an Outback for the first 50' but once the speed gets up around 4 mph or so the vanes have to compensate by going faster. At some point, I'm guessing, the tips are going fast enough to effectively stall like an airplane wing. One of the keys to the drive is its tremedous efficiency. It grabs the water and holds on. There is very little turbulence such as you might see behind your first few paddle strokes. This and the fact that legs are stronger than arms are what I think, makes it what it is.
It also occurs to me that Hobie has this all figured out. The size and length of those vanes can't be an accident. Considering the hull speed of the Outback which is probably in the low 4 mph range, could it be that the drive is designed to "top out" around that same level?
What made me think of this was remembering a picture I once saw of a tugboat in drydock. The propeller was huge. It wasn't designed for speed it was meant for pushing and pulling very hard but not at all fast. Compare this with the prop they put on racing hydroplanes. They're not only tiny but they're designed to only have one vane in the water at a time.
On the other hand I could be wrong.

[dmac]

Ken,Seems to me that the ratio of peddle stroke to blade area on the outback is geared towards torque and med speed efficiency.It shoots out of the hole in a heart beat and can maintain a medium speed with little effort.I am sure Hobie did this as a good all around compromise.Change the Ratio and blade area and I am sure you will have a faster/slower accelerating drive system.Not everyones cup of tea but more to what we might be looking for.combine it with a hull that is not like the goofy sponsooned one they have now and.....I can only dream.
I know how many people love the Hobie ,And I think the drive system is a technological marvel...but the yak itself is a success despite the hull.Not because of it.They are catering to the same entry/all around market that every other kayak company is.If there is enough vocal demand that they feel will equate into sales I am sure they could come up with a high speed yak based on the fantastic product they already have.We all know already what the top performance of paddle yaks are based on the composite ones out on the market already.I think something like the hobie is going to be the next leap up.
Think of recumbent bikes that use your upper body .They cannot compete with a conventional bike.

Doug M

[Ken L]

DMac, agreed.

[Santiago II]

The fact that Hobie has this enormous technological advantage and doesn't take advantage of it just astounds me.

Even if you couldn't get the Mirage drive over 4 knots why not have a hull versatile enough to paddle faster than the foot drive? I wouldn't object to a kayak that used two propulsion systems. Cruise mode/sprint mode.

How much longer will their patent last?

[Ken L]

Brian, what I meant to imply is that the drive is sized to match the hull speed of the Outback. It seems to me that if they wanted to they could design one for fifteen footer. If my theorizing is correct it would be smaller but geared to rotate faster. The ability to pull so hard would thus be sacrificed in part to gain speed.
I think.

[mrsinbad]

Joey, if you and Jon build it, they will come (to buy)! Those other yak manufacturers have too much capital invested in factories, inventories, and equipment that they cannot react as quickly and would require a very high volume before they would consider offering a High Performance Fishing Kayak (the "HiPer FisKa", there I named it), so you and Jon would command the market for a few years at least. The mainstream yakkers would probably start to buy it as well cause of the larger hatches, layout, etc.

[JonS]

Ed, just what I need, more to do. http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=633102653 However Beagle did mention something about we might be able to get ahold of the Exp mold at some time in the not too distant future.

Another however though. Having lived with the Outback a while I have learned to appreciate it more and work around some of its short comings.

A couple things too. I've gotten it up to 5.4 mph. It'll cruise all day about as fast as a 160 or Prowler but covers much more territory. I would say that the range is conservatively twice that of a Prowler or 160. For places like the Sound it would be my primary kayak. It's weakness is surf and flats. Surf is just launching and returing but flats are significant.

[Ken L]

Jon, how fast do you cruise in the Hobie? The only comment I've read so far mentioned 3.5 mph.

[Scott]

All these yaks are stil displacement hulls and as such are mired by their hull length, or weted surface. a sail boat that is a displacement hull get's to go faster by leaning, effe3ctively increasing it's water line. a yak will have to either go to a stepped hull, not sure how much speed is required toexceed drag and get it to step, but nce clear of the extreme drag the water produces, then engine is the limit and thus the sky is the limit.

One way around this if you're brain storming is to creat a wide flat surface, like a
Miss Budwiser" planing hull. But, there are definite disadvantages to it all.

The hull you are all discussing is a hull for a very niche crowd, the 140-170 pound person with advanced yaking skill, with a specific purpose, specialty always has less demand than general. But you may find a group of a few hundred guys looking for it.

I'd put time and money into a yak with less sacrifices. Better ergonomics, better material for construction. Broader interest.

The Hobie drive has a limit, single speed, as the speed of the wings increase, the tiop move faster, and eventually start to cavitate and thus lose tremendous effeciency. If you're committed to losing two feet of deprth, hw a bout a more traditional prop system, using composites, that'll allow for gearing and increase performance, the step the hull a bit...then maybe put a small amount of electrical or gas into the system and make a small motor boat....get's complicated fast. Just my thoughts. Scott

[Scott]

PS, why can't we be experimenting in vacuum molding? I mead a mold half could be modeled out of clay or wood, then the durable materail sucked around it. Match the halves and use adhesive to put together, seems to me there could be a future in that. scott

[Scott]

One more thougth, the person you are marketing to, is the person that will drive an extra eighteen miles for a 2 centa gallon savings on gas. You are looking to make speed differnce i sprints? of what 1 knot (20%) maybe???? over a short sprint, maybe a 1/4 - 1/2 knot over a cruise. So if we paddle/peddle next to each other, after one hour, you're going to be 2500 feet infront of me....not too impressive I have to say. I'd see a much bgger market for a well tought out yak with a reasonable weight. S

[JonS]

Ken, 3.5 to 4.

Here's the motor I want. www.powerski.com (http://www.powerski.com)

[Santiago II]

Motors definitely have a niche but pesonally, I want a human powered machine. Any efficient foot operated system would be fine with me as long as I have the option to paddle as well when I want to.

[Eagle Eye]

Gentlemen,

I’m 6’4” and weight 230 pounds – will be 48 years old this year (past my prime) and have no problem fishing offshore in the Cobra Expedition. Granted it felt a little unstable at first but it never once threw me and before long we became one. Because of the rounded hull I find that I can lean it over much farther than any other SOT I’ve ever fished from and I’m sure I don’t have to tell you how fast and efficient the Cobra Expedition is to paddle.

Here are a few pictures of a 34 pound plus x 41” long Pacific Halibut that I fought and landed while fishing offshore in my Expedition this weekend. Any of you that have ever caught a halibut know that when you stick a gaff in them they go ballistic. This individual fish was no different than the rest and while it wasn’t like pulling a fish that size over the rail of a boat it was just a matter of taking my time.

EE


http://www.plasticnavy.com/albums/liars2/no_smile_butt.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/EE-john/WCW1-15-05.jpg

http://www.plasticnavy.com/albums/liars2/butt_on_deck.sized.jpg

[Scott]

EE, beautiful fish!!!!! great job too. Scott

[Ken L]

the problem is in defining the problem. The top speed of any yak is irrelavant to us. We got these thing to fish not to race. What makes the Hobie so attractive as far as this discussion goes is its range not its speed. It doesn't cruise any faster than other 12 footers but legs are evolved for long periods of exercise as opposed to arms. Other than the Hobie what is germain to this discussion is what the cruising speeds are. The cruising speeds are indicative of range but top speeds are more likely a statement about the physical condition of the paddler. Everyone agrees it seems, that the 160 is the fastest and it well might be but can a few of its owners tell us at what speed they cruise?

[Santiago II]

EE,

Fantastic job! Great fish. The boat looks great too.

Do have to keep you feet over the sides to enhance stability or is that just preference?

My problem with Cobra's in general is their lack of plastic and Cobra's tendency to overprice their kayaks. They always weigh less and cost more. For some the weight is a plus, but for me that means less structural integrity.

The Exp is real close to the water, which has it pluses and minuses. That aside, the Cobra Exp has some clear advantages. It has great hatches and a rudder system.

I'd love to hear more from people that fish them.

[Santiago II]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ken L:
the problem is in defining the problem. The top speed of any yak is irrelavant to us. We got these thing to fish not to race. What makes the Hobie so attractive as far as this discussion goes is its range not its speed. It doesn't cruise any faster than other 12 footers but legs are evolved for long periods of exercise as opposed to arms. Other than the Hobie what is germain to this discussion is what the cruising speeds are. The cruising speeds are indicative of range but top speeds are more likely a statement about the physical condition of the paddler. Everyone agrees it seems, that the 160 is the fastest and it well might be but can a few of its owners tell us at what speed they cruise? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ken, as usual, I agree with you completely. A foot operated system (decreasing fatigue) with the highest sustained cruising speed is what we're looking for to maximize range. I think we're looking at top speed as a surrogate for max sustainable cruising speed.

Bottom line, get to where the fish are breaking, or cover the maximun ground searching for them.

I would speculate that the 160 is the longest boat that meets the demands of the average paddler. From the first time I test paddled one it was clear that it had great take off and glide. I suspect it cruise more efficiently than shorter boats as well.

[Ken L]

From my own experience as well as what I've tried to distill from all the posts over the years, the cruising speed seems to be pretty closely aligned with hull speed. The Hobie has all the range but it cruises like a 120. Hull speed is directly related to waterline length so the 160 should be the best open water fishing yak. The empirical evidence seems to confirm this. If we want greater range then we clearly have to start with a longer hull.

[JonS]

EE, nice fishie and welcome to the forums.

When I tried the Cobra Exp. I wasn't thrilled. Found it a little rollyer then I'd like but that was 4 years ago, I think. http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=633102653

Ken the 160 and P15 are so close in speed. I consider these the fastest SOTs that have stability that anyone can handle.

As stated the Hobie, because it uses the thighs just covers more water. It'll loose a race to other yaks in a sprint but over distance most people will do much better with it. Again the discussion is how nice it would be to have that kind of range in a kayak that cruised at 5-6 mph.

From what I've been able tell without having paddled one yet the Heritage Exp. may be the best hull for what we want to do. The top needs a lot of work though.

[Ken L]

In order to get a hull speed of 5.5 mph we need a waterline length of 16.8 ft.

[Rikshaw]

Santiago II,

"Cobra's weigh less and cost more..."

Can you site an example of this where Cobra is severly out of line? If you can it would be a great help to me as we are working hard to make sure our product is profitable for dealers, yet competitively priced when compared to the competition.

Now Granted, I work for Cobra, but I also worked for Malibu Kayaks and am famaliar with the pricing of WS and OK kayaks, and if you want to compare apples to apples... then Cobra's Kayaks are right in line with everyone else.

Especially when you consider that there is a 15% increase in the price of Ocean Kayaks coming down the pipes to dealers right now, as well as price increases for Emotion Kayaks.

Strangely enough... Our prices are actually dropping.

15%... WOW! Lets see... Prowler 15' old price is $749.00 with a front hatch, and soon will be $861.35

Loaded, with a front hatch, a center hatch with cat bag, and rudder was $1109.00 and will soon be $1275.35

And Ocean Kayaks Warranty? - 1 Year

Now, our closest Kayak to the Prowler would be our Tourer. 15' Long, 28" wide, and 50 lbs.

Our LOADED Price, with Rudder, 10" round Hatch with either Bucket or Cat Bag, and 2 - "A" style hatches (Front AND Rear) is $1283.00.

And as with ALL Cobra Kayaks... it comes with the original satisfaction / lifetime warranty.

Yes, we strive to make our kayaks light. Light yet Rigid, and with the backing of our dealer network (Over 200 Nationwide), and our warranty... This should not be a problem.

And it is going to get even better for dealers like KFS before the end of the month, as we implement a new program and some of our prices actually drop.

Some manufacturers will take a loss on items to gain market share. This is fine. Then when they have their foots in the door, they will raise the prices. Other manufacturers have kept their prices low and have absorbed the material cost increases time and time again, until BAM, they have to raise prices to remain profitable.

It is all a balancing act as the prices of our raw material are tied to petroleum prices overall, as well as to fluctuating prices for consumables such as natural gas for heating the ovens and making the boats.

Compare an Ocean Kayak or a Tarpon to a Pelican Kayak available at Costco... why is an Ocean Kayak a better kayak at 4 times the cost?

Product line
Materials used
Customer service
Product innovation
etc...

So yes, we may be a bit more, and I mean just a bit more, than some other kayaks, but we will also be a bit less than others.

We are working hard to make boats that ride the knife edge of durability and lightness, as well as continually working to save our customers as much money as we can.

And 2005 promises to be an exciting year for Cobra. We have just released the all NEW Escape, which at 10'2" X 31" and weighing in at 38 lbs, makes it the perfect yak for throwing in the water at a moments notice and fishing or paddling to suit your needs. With a 260 lb capacity, it is a great kayak for women and kids, as well as a great kayak for guys who want the ease and mobility of a small, stable Kayak.

Then, before the end of the Month, we will be releasing the new Fish-N-Dive XF, with new Tank well, modified deck layout, and revamped jump seat.

In time for the upcoming Fishing Season Cobra will be releasing our ALL NEW 14' Fishing Kayak, and before we are done this year, I promise even more surprises and innovations that will knock your sox off, so keep pestering Jon and Joey. They know some of the exciting things in the works, but have been sworn to silence on pain of severe wedgies if they spill the beans, and other exciting things they simply do not even know about.

;-)

So let me know where we are too expensive or too light... and I will do what I can to address these issues.

Ric Hawthorne
Cobra Kayaks

[diverden]

Just as an aside to the conversation of fast fishing Yaks, I encoutered a strange vessel while fishing the flats of Charlotte Harbor recently. A gentleman in an orange sik with extremely high gunwales approached my position and stopped to chat a while. His rig was equipped with a jet ski motor which was built into the stearn. It had a recoil pull starter rope in the cockpit. Due to it's bulk it looked incredibly stable. He said casting while standing was simple.He said he could do 20MPH, and run all day on a tank of gas.We talked so much about fishing I forgot to ask him who made the vessel. The only logo I recall seeing on the front was "Makai". I have done numerous earch attempts on the net and come up with zip.
Anybody have some info. on ths beast? Looked great for long distance trips.

[Santiago II]

Rik,

Nice to see you're out there keeping an eye on things. Always good to hear from you. I wish all companies had a point man who was so diligent.

OK, my issues with Cobra have always been price and weight.

I've looked at Cobras for everything from surf boats to tandems and they've always MSRP'd well above the competition. That and the lack of local dealers always convinced me to get another boat from another company. Do you want to compare the prices between a Tandem and a Malibu II? That decision wasn't rocket science. The other thing that was frustrating was that the price with hatches drive the MSRP up considerably. I used to buy hatches wholesale from Viking, I know what they cost.

When looking for a fast SOT I could compare the 18 ft Exped to the Heritage Exped/Sea Dart 17. The Heritage boat weighs in about 72 lbs and has two hatches and two bulkheads. I can get them new for $799.00 MSRP. (I actually paid about $535.00 for mine new.


The Cobra Expedition weighs in at 48 lbs. with two hatches retails for around $1113.00, If I do the full hatch set up that's up to $1289.50

The weight issue is matter of preference. Plenty of people would buy the Cobra because of it's weight, but I like a kayak that can take a beating and I don't mind carrying the weight.

Since Cobra uses the same material as everyone else, but manages to keep it's hull weights down there have to compromises somewhere. Maybe, to your credit, it's just much better tolerances. Then again, if you need less material why are you charging more.

If you really spend more time making your kayaks, I could appreciate that.

The price is another matter. I don't even bother to look at Cobras anymore because of the price differences. You're talking about a 30% price difference for some models compared to the competition. That's not loose change. I've purchased 10 kayaks over the past 6 years and never paid over $600.00 for any of them. So we've established that I'm basically cheap. But I'm not alone. For someone like me price is always a major factor. If you want tell me about future changes and other company raising their prices, that doesn't really help your case, just makes them look bad.

The upside,is that the Cobra Expedition has a much better deckside layout than the Heritage boat. The downside is the hull side lacks initial stability. On top of that, it's a very wet ride. Not really a cold water boat by Northeast standards.

Anyway, thats my perspective, but I'm always willing to hear anything an interested manufacturer has to say.

[rwolson]

Eagle Eye,

Welcome. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif

Sink a gaff into a halibut and they go balistic, yes, I know the feeling. I caught a 50+ many years ago, no fight from the bottom in 200 feet of water, but once the gaff hit home, look out. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Nice halibut you got for the grill. http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=253102653

Also, a boat capable of cruising at higher speeds in more efficient or better glide.

[JimW]

Boat capable of higher speeds may have neither efficiency or glide. With displacment boats it's waterline length, basicly, but you can fool the water a bit. Beamy boats present a longer waterline than narrower boats the same length but a full entry can also make the apparent waterline length even longer. All you need is a lot more power to make it go faster. Don't confuse efficiency with top end.

[Riverwader]

San

Can I call you san...lol http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif

Just wanted to make a few comments on your last response.

First of all when I spoke of an entry level boat I was talking of an entry level fishing kayak, not rec boats.

And as far as variables are concerned I alluded to them in a previous post in this thread. I think even when you subtract some variables from the potential market your left with a favorable number. As far as total fishing kayak sales are concerned, it doesn't matter what percentage of fishing kayaks are of total kayak sales. What matters is the number of fishing kayaks sold relative to canoes, small jon boats and other small craft for fishing. Once you compare kayaks to small fishing craft sales you will see not only how little of the market fishing kayaks have, but also the massive potential for growth. If a company would take the time and effort to research and target the fishing market it could yield huge returns.

"the fast, fishing SOT market may be a small share but I'll bet it's larger than sprint and surf boats. And it's definitely growing. It's definitely worth one new boat in a company's product line."

Your absolutely right! And your comment about good companies looking ahead is on the mark also.

The manufacturers are held back by there Rec lines in respect to their fishing boats. Most of the things fisherman don't like about current fishing kayaks are due to the compromises the maker made to ensure the kayak (um..t160) could also be a viable rec boat choice also. Wheather this is done because of fear of small sales or just to maxamize sales I don't know. But I think It is holding companies back.

All I am trying to say really is the fishing kayak markets potential is huge and as Jons said in a post is capable of surpassing rec sales. We just have to make a manufacturer believe it.



Rishaw,

Is Ocean Kayaks going up in option pricing also or just basic boat price? If the latter is true then your estimate is inflated a bit. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[beagle]

Have seen the spec's on the Cobra Exp, and would truly LOVE to put one on the scales.
18', and 48#.
Is that the weight bare bones? Is that the "shot weight"?
What's the average thickness of the hull?
The adverized specs on this, to me, are very hard to believe.

[Scott]

If you make a well thought out Fishing kayak, you won't have to change the mold, it'll be "the" yak for a long time. there are enough people here, with enough experience to put a manufacturer very close to an ideal yak. An ideal yak, one researched and looked at from a future point of view, can create a demand that goes beyond just one generation of fishing. an example.....hmmmmm....what has been designed in the last 10 years, that we still turn to on a regular basis for it's craftmanship, sturdiness, functionality...the old penn reels. Never go out of style, always usable. If there isn't a yak designed to exceed the T120, I think people will fish out that yak for years. Maybe to the point where after the first one dies, they'll buy the same to replace it.

Bu the yak has to be engineered, not just produced. It needs a think tank to look at the future of fishing, the conditions, the ptoentials, all ideas are not insane...like a molded in battery compartment, like a molded in puck well....like a place to put rods for surf launch and exit...there are a lot of real world applications that have not been included in yak designs to date. If a designer would really look at the consumer, the firsherman...not a rec yakker, and make "the" committment, I think the potential is there. I know they've tried it, but something really slowed them down. The big companies, OK, wilderness, Malibu, they're making their monies, now invent one that does the job for anglers.

Hatches that are truly waterproof...maybe a sleeve inside of the yak, with a vertically mounted hatch in the tankwell that could accomodate several rods...Just thoughts. Scott

[mrsinbad]

I just want to make a few points here and some personal observasions.

It has been well documented how negative some manufacturers are to feedback from the masses that actually use their yaks. Instead, they are quite arrogant and, at best, use a short list of "pro" staff and unqualified designers to provide suggestions and create their yaks. Instead, they should consider all feedback. I have personally spoken to some Hobie reps at shows and told them their hull has got to go. Their response was something to the effect that we know better and it is what it is. Others have noted similar attitudes as well. If the Hobie folks continue this attitude, I do not think they would sell their peddle drives separately so the DIY folks can try to mount it on their T160/Prowlers or try to change their drives to a "higher gear ratio" so the more efficient hulls can attain a higher cruising speed. Also, if Hobie starts to work with WS or OK to add their drives to another mfg's yak line, how much do you think Hobie would charge for the drives? If I was Hobie, the answer would be plenty... add that cost with a markup will be added to the cost of a T160 or Prowler, and then you're looking at something that is ridiculously expensive. So don't count on any collaberation between Hobie and another manufacturer. If you are looking for a more efficient hull for the peddle drive, it will have to come from Hobie (at least for now). So for this duscussion (at this time), I think it's more realistic to focus on a paddling yak than a peddling yak.

SII, with regard to your statement regarding weight, stiffness, structural integrity, and price of Cobra Yaks... yaks like the Cobra Tourer uses HDPE not LDPE. This material is more stiff and more expensive than the LD stuff and as a result, less material is needed to produce a stiff hull and as a result, the yak will be lighter and more expensive. Typically, if you compare Cobra Yaks to other yaks in the same size class, the Cobras are lighter and costlier, but I would expect that. From personal experience with my Tourer and my Prowler, I have never felt my Tourer flex as I have with my Prowler (and noted by other Prowler owners). Also, when I move my Tourer and my Prowler around, I notice (and it's very noticable) the Tourer is lighter.

Rickshaw, I hope you take away from this discussion that there is a serious demand for a high performance fishing kayak and try to influence the manufacturers you have access to to produce such a yak.

With regard to "efficiency," I want to stay away from the debates between the peddlers vs. the paddlers (because the hull doesn't care how you deliver thrust, it just want it!) and the displacement hulls vs. the planing hulls. Instead, I would propose we have the mindset ("definition") of how much resultant speed we obtain or how many miles we can cover given we provide a certain amount of thrust. So, if I apply 20 lbs of thrust (or .XX horsepower) from my paddle or from my peddle for a long time period, and I get a higher MPH from a long thin yak (and as a result, cover more miles) than from a short wide yak, I would say the long thin yak is more efficient, and that is the yak I want to be in when I look for more and different fishing spots. Pratically speaking, I don't think we can sustain enough horsepower at the necessary cadence to obtain the benefits of a planing hull (with or without steps), so by default, it seems a displacement hull is the only answer. Like Scott has noted, as the sailboat starts to heel, it will begin to plane and gain more efficiency as the LWL lengthens. Because our yaks can't be paddles heeled over constantly, all its efficiency has to be obtained with the hull in the vertical position.

Jon, even if you could get the Expedition mold, do you think the hull is viable, or do you want to use that as a platform for additional modifications. What would you do to the c0ckpit? Also, if the mold is a cast aluminum mold, changing it may be more trouble than trying to cast a new one. As you had noted before, it was not suitable as a fishing yak. Has that changed?

[beagle]

Changing a mold is still cheaper than recasting a new one. That is exactly what is happening to the WS T160. Hull will be the same, different top 1/2 of the mold, oval up front, round in the seat area and a round behind the seat, TW behind that.
From conception, to prototype, to plug, to mold, of a yak of that size, you are looking at 60k. Money being tight and all everywhere, I need to be darn sure that I have the sales #'s to justify that mold.
Now, if all I have to do is a mold modification, I'm ahead of the game.
The truly hard thing for the maker to deal with is the size of the mold and the equipment to handle it. This is one of the reasons that the price is gets up there.
The oven costs of a clam type rock and roll oven that can fit a mold framed up of the sizes we are talking is around 175k new.
Used is a whole nother issue. Need about 5000sq/ft to support that oven and operation.

[JonS]

Lots to address.

The jet powered kayak is a Mokai.

Kayak weights first. Companies that already come with hatches have accurate weights; WS and OK. Companines that use add on hatches list weights for the bare hull; Cobra and Malibu. I get lots of calls from folks who think that a kayak actually weighs what the manufacturer says it does. The Cobra FnD is listed at 57 but my first FnD weighed 73. Big difference. Mine had 3 hatches. As Ed said the Tourer is lighter then the Prowler. If the Tourer had better secondary stability it would be my top choice as the layout is excellent however I prefer performance over layout up to a point. The Cobra Exp. is a hybrid and not a SOT. I didn't care for it but some might.

Cobra's working on stuff as Rick said. Cobra is doing what they need to do which is modernize. It's been some time since anything new has been done. Mums the word so there's not a lot to talk about now but I'm sure we'll have some stuff to check out at the May demo day at J-Bay. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I look forward to the new stuff as I like Cobra alot. They're a great company to work with and they have the best guarantee in the industry. As to pricing with Cobras, their MSRP is higher then some yaks but so was the markup. So many dealers, us included, did more with packaging as the price gave us the flexibility to do so.

Ed, I was talking about the Heritage Exp. mold not the Cobra. From all reports it sounds like the bottom is fine. The top needs the work. More investigation is needed. We'll probably get our mits on one to play with.

As many of you know we tried working with a company to create a really nice fishing kayak. The kayak is a nice yak but not what I tried to convey to the company. What concerns me with a lot of development is I'm not sure who the companies are consulting. I imagine that Cobra is working with some locals on the west coast. Problem is the so. California fishing environment isn't indicative of the majority of the environments that are being fished. To develope a kayak based upon such an area is flawed. From Maine to Texas the needs are essentially the same. The species may change but the environments aren't all that different.

Also with consulting kayak fishermen you'll get some good info but often these guys simply don't see enough. One such example is a discussion we had a while back about the 160tw. Corey pushed for a smaller hatch up front. One that isn't capable of storing a big wheel cart. His feeling was that one could simply walk the cart back to the vehicle. That may be appropriate where he lives but up here that won't work. It could be a very expensive outing as unattended gear doesn't stand much chance in an area where another's personal property isn't respected. There are other such things that aren't taken into consideration. Being in the position that we are we speak with tons of consumers. Also we do a lot of fishng in a wide variety of environments. The info is out there but as of yet the companies haven't been willing to find it.

Hopefully Hobie will continue to evolve and we'll see the hulls improve. I love the drive. There is absolutely no reason for Hobie to share their technology with another company. I wouldn't.

[mrsinbad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by beagle:
Now, if all I have to do is a mold modification, I'm ahead of the game…

The oven costs of a clam type rock and roll oven that can fit a mold framed up of the sizes we are talking is around 175k new. Used is a whole nother issue. Need about 5000sq/ft to support that oven and operation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks beagle for the info about mold modification, I am now better informed. As far as the Plant & Equipment costs go, that is where the small guy, (call it “KFS, LLC” for now) will save some money by finding the Rotomolder with the ability and the facilities already set up. This way KFS,LLC does not need to set up a plant nor purchase the equipment. Again, I recognize there are not many Rotomolders that can handle very long molds, but they do exist.

As an aside, the costs to set up a rotomold for a really long yak may have exceeded the benefits of having a plastic yak for a small volume producer. With a high initial cost (even if it’s half of the 60K quoted by beagle), it may be more economical to consider fiberglass with a couple of sheets Kevlar on the bottom. Of course, no one can make a smart decision until all the costs are tallied, but we need to keep in mind possible alternatives.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonS:
Ed, I was talking about the Heritage Exp. mold not the Cobra…

What concerns me with a lot of development is I'm not sure who the companies are consulting… Problem is the so. California fishing environment isn't indicative of the majority of the environments that are being fished. To develop a kayak based upon such an [one] area is flawed…

One such example is a discussion we had a while back about the 160tw. Corey pushed for a smaller hatch up front. One that isn't capable of storing a big wheel cart. His feeling was that one could simply walk the cart back to the vehicle. That may be appropriate where he lives but up here that won't work. It could be a very expensive outing as unattended gear doesn't stand much chance in an area where another's personal property isn't respected… <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good, I’m glad it’s the Expedition … now if you can put on the list of mods for adding a rudder, it would be nicer. As far as what you said about the consulting, I agree with you… It is apparent the manufacturers don’t talk to enough people (or listening to enough people) and are not considering many variables that include the environment of use, and well as locations where they will be used. That is why we had some discussions about cable locks. I for one will not every consider leaving my $170 Roleez cart hidden near my launch spot or even chained to a tree, because the mentality is if they can’t take it, they will destroy it. Now, I’m forced to take the cart with me and put it in the tankwell (if I’m lucky to have a yak with one) taking up the space I need for my milk crate or my trophy fish. If there are 2 similar model yaks, and one has a tankwell, I would buy the tankwell model without a second thought.

Manufacturers! Listen, compile, distill, improve, test, and tweak! Simple and not hard to do considering the consequences is to commit money, time, and facilities to something that does not suit the purpose and you won’t realize your ROI as quickly as you like.

[beagle]

I agree with ya Mr Sinbad on contracting it out, but it is EXTREMELY hard to find and train the roto molders to make the parts to the industry standards. I have been involved with outsourcing projects and was blown away by the standards of "our quality" to "their" quality.
The vast majority of roto molded parts are "down and dirty", cosmetically speaking. There are very few roto parts that the consumer pays the money that we do for yaks, and expects the same quality. I stiil have to remind folks that they are just plastic, you want perfection, buy a composite yak.
Little Tykes, largest rotomolder out there, check out your kids play set, gyms, little cars, etc. Terrible quality by yak standards, but perfectly acceptable in their realm.
Buying oven time ain't cheap either. Especially if you are asking me to make a part for you, but only when you give me the go ahead. You think you'll need...1000 boats this year?
OK, what colors and here they come. Wait you don't know the color mix and you don't want to carry that inventory of 1000 boats all year till(if) there sold? You want me to build to order, meaning putting up yer mold whenever you want,interupting other scheduled jobs, OkeeDokee, the price just went up.
The list of variables is huge. Not insurmountable, but very daunting.

[clydejazz]

My 2 cents:
For me, wind is the biggest factor when I'm kayaking. My Prowler 15 is fun to paddle unless the wind gets to be more than 5-10 knots. My buddy has a plywood SIK, and when the wind starts gusting, he's still able to fish: 2 or 3 strokes and his yak will still glide, even into the wind. When I'm right next to him, I have to dig into every stroke, or I start going backwards. Not fun when you took 15 minutes to get off shore, but now you're looking at 45 minutes of heavy paddling to get in, with no break.

[The Riddler]

I am glad to see this thread grow to more then just speed. I am with others. Speed is not a priority with me. I paddle a Malibu Extreme and it seems fast to me, slow for some but I dont struggle.

I grew out of the Tarpon 120 in half a season. Great kayak! 2 years later I am in search of another kayak. I love the Extreme, I hate the weight and the wet hull. Makes rod storage useless on landings when there is already a gallon or so with sand in the hull. Appreciate the dry footwells and stability. The layout or rib in the center is my type of layout. Wish the center hatch was turned the other way to get rods secured,

I am looking for lighter and water tight hatches with all the positives that I have now on the Extreme. If I could find something with more effeciency, as wind and conditions change, great! I want to stand and cast and still have great intial stability. I dont care who makes the kayak. If the price is top of the market, so be it. As long as I get what I pay for and the customer service is there.

Good to see you out here Rik!

[Ken L]

If I can turn it back to speed for a minute i gather from the many posts as well as the link by CT Angler that the highest practical cruising speed is something less than the hull speed. Most 12 footers cruise at 3.5 to 4 mph including Hobies. The Hull speed of a 12 footer is about 4.4 mph. that assumes a waterline of 11'. It increases directly with the square root of the waterline. In order to get a hull speed of 5.5 mph we need a waterline of 16.8 feet. That looks like an overall length of 19' to me.
In other words the return only comes at a pretty stiff price.

[JimW]

I have plans for a 17 ft yak with a 16.6 WL so not so probably not so extreme. I think the Hobie drive might have to come as a 2 speed to make 5.5 unless you can stand the torque you will have to generate at lower speeds. It sounds like it's already abt maxed out on pedal cadence at 4 or so. And we don't know what the drag of the fins does at higher speeds.

[Ken L]

I would think that a fast Hobie drive would consist of smaller fins that somehow could be made to oscillate faster. This would be like having only second gear instead of only first. I'm not sure it would work and I can't see how it can be done. If you have to peddle faster it defeats the advantage of the drive since it's more tiring. If you gear it up then a full oscillation would take less than a full peddle stroke. What would be needed would be a way to generate a full back and forward oscillation of the vanes with only one full peddle stroke.
It's the Gourdian Knot of kayaking.

[Rikshaw]

Glad to be here Riddler. Good to see all of you, Bernie, MrSinbad, etc... And thanks for the "Welcome Back".

Some excellent points have been raised by quite a few posters in here. I will not say I agree with all of them, but many I do. One of the nice things in being with Cobra is that we make our own molds, have our own ovens, do our own injection molding and as such... we CAN listen to what you have to say and adapt things, IF they are feasible.

My question is this... how fast do you want to go? Isn't this subjective?

Yes, fishing out there in KFS land is different From the West coast to the gulf coast to you guys on the N.E. Seaboard, but this does not mean the N.E. has more in common with Texas Fisherman than Fisherman here in California. What does someone in Texas need to paddle 8mph for if they are drift fishing the shallows for reds and flounder? Where as we have a large group of guys out here in Cali that regularly paddle 15 to 20 miles in a day as they fish.

8mph is too fast to troll for most fish out here, where as a nice 3.5mph is just right, but that is for ME... I'm interested in the "Why's" of this thread and maybe 3.5 is far too slow for you guys to troll. As you have pointed out... We DON'T know out here.

But I'd like to.

Jon Posts that Speed and stability are more important than Deck layout after a certain point... well where IS that point?

For my part, and on a personal level, not to bag on anyone, but while I think the prowler is a BEAUTIFUL kayak... I would NEVER own one. I like USABLE Storage, but once again... that is me. So if you want to have this conversation... lets talk SPECIFICS and let me know why you want to go fast.

A united front speaks volumes and this thread has merit and is very interesting, but there really has been no explanation as to WHY the posters on this thread want a long, fast kayak. So tell me what you are wanting to do, and then we'll see if we can somehow do it. Fair Enough?

And Santiago II, Good to see you as well. I have not posted with you in quite a long time. There are several things that make prices higher. (I would still like some examples though of where Cobra is 30% more.) Materials used, Processes used, etc. All I can say is that Cobra uses only the highest quality of materials, we make our own models in house, we make our molds at our NZ facility, we actually mold our own kayaks in house, and yes, we build in very nice profit margins for our dealers like Jon and Joey. But again, as I stated previously... we ARE working to address some things right now and are planning on revised 2005 pricing very soon.

So lets hear it guys.... ;-)

We're all ears.

Ric

[JonS]

Ric, the reason we want speed is for covering distance to get to where we want to fish. Often access is limited and where we wish to fish may be miles away. A more efficient hull will get us there with less effort. It's the same all along the coast and even inland. We don't troll life baits here much so trolling speed doesn't matter. Our fish tend to be oriented to structure so we don't often search open water for them like out west. We go to where they should be then fish the area thoroughly or we travel to flats and either standup fish, or wade the flats. Often our kayaks are used as access vehicles. I just sold a yak to a gent in the Great Lakes who paddles app. 8 miles, one way, to get to where he's going to fish. It's usually very windy and rough water too. It's a major shipping channel so he encounters big ships and all that goes with them. So he needs a yak similar to what we use in the salt.

As to layout, models like the Cobra Tourer is excellent so Cobra already does a great job on both the fishing ergonomics and storage. It has a good hatch layout, cockpit, beveled edges for mounting rod holders, etc. It's still all around the best. Where Cobra can improve is in getting rid of the winged bottoms of their hulls, and go to a more traditional bottom that has secondary stability. Redesign the bottom on a kayak like the Tourer, stretch it a bit, get rid of the hull slap, put the rudder tubing inside, add some rocker and if possible get it up to the 7-8 mph range and you've got a winner.

[Scott]

7-8 mph.....wow, that's going to be some engineering http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I want a hatch speciically created to be water tight, angled vertically to put rods in tot he yak. Preferably near the back of the yak so I can accessit from the seat. Say the front wall of the Tankwell, a five inche round waterproof hatch, open it and there is storage under the seat or along the side of the yak to place a rod or two for surf launches. Scott

[beagle]

How a yak performs in "sloppy" conditions is another big factor on the east coast. So. California's weather patterns and the east coast are two very different animals.
Compare the amount of small craft warnings for the same period of time and you will see a very large difference. Now that is not saying that folks should be out paddling in those SCW days, but if I only paddled on the pretty day days, my fishing time on the water would change.
My brother lives out west and has a boat in Dana Pt. We have traded many stories east to west, and I fish with him whenever I get out there. He laughs when I tell him about getting "spanked" by the weather. "There are so many good days out here, that we just don't go when it's somewhat snotty". I hate 'em for that http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
Typically, some of the best fishing of the year on the east, is in the fall, fall means wind.
For myself, I want a yak that performs well in the slop. Not that I am paddlin in conditions where one should not be out,(at least when I start out, it's not). This to me is more important than any other feature. I know that there is no one deck layout that I am gonna feel is perfect.If it's a "wet" ride I'll make do, but if she performs well in the wind and the chop,and can make good time in those conditions, that's the yak I want. This yak only makes the nice days so much more enjoyable.
I may be in the minority, but if I am, it won't be for long, as folks get more time on the water, I am guessing more folks will be looking for the same. I think we are starting to hear this in this very thread.

[JonS]

Scott, we can dream. Since the 160 and P15 will do 6 I'm sure that the Heritage Exp has to be at least a mph faster. So faster hulls already exist. Now the top has to be fixed. That isn't that hard.

More and more kayak fishermen are going to want performance with ergonomics. Neither has to be seperate from each other. A redesigned top for the Exp. would be an big step in that direction and I know that the sales would be there.

[beagle]

Amen. http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=253102653

[scwafish]

Ric:

I want a faster SOT for running down boils. Getting there 10 seconds sooner is often the difference between missed it and hook-up. For the open ocean around here there is a launch every ten feet so seaworthyness is more important than speed to me.

As to weighs less and costs more I just don't see this as a negative. After cycling for many years, this just seems like a big DUHh. You will pay 40-50% more for a bike that weighs as little as 3# less. The same goes for any human powered performance item. If it has a lifetime warranty what do I care if they want to try and make it light...I say THANKS for going there!

I too look forward to seeing what the revitalized Cobra kicks out this spring, and working with them in the future.

[Scott]

I guess I'm kind of out of this for speed, as at my size I'm not going to get it and quite frankly it's not as important to me as ergonomics. I do think, Jon, you are right we can have both. A team to sesign a hull and a team to design a deck are not mutually exclusive. But how do you get the ergonics done right? I know, ask us. What about a modular system....as system that allow for different deck configurations based on inserts. A bare hull, kind of canoe looking with scupper sin it could be made, then inserts droppped in with scuppers that line up, a tankwell or storage in the rear, tankwell or storage in the front, different seating arrangements, cockpit flat for sight fishing or center consoled for accessories. How about a system that had a spot to accomodate a 9ft tube, that would pressure fit intot the deck and act as a rod holder...lot's of ideas. S

They make three piece SOT's, then a modular would be doable...and pretty cool I might add. Different colors. Neat stuff personally. S

[Santiago II]

Well,
When Rik worked for Malibu, I bought a Malibu, so we'll see what magic Rik can work at Cobra.

I have to agree with scwafish, that's pretty much what speed is all about and why we need it.

When you consider the penalty that water and wind take on a human powered kayak, any little bit of extra performance helps.

[Scott]

Hey I heard gas was 2 cents cheaper just across town http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[mrsinbad]

Ric, I’m really glad you have taken an interest in this thread and we have your ear. I would encourage all you guys that have something to suggest, to take this opportunity and make the best of it. I see that your post is very focused on a couple of topics, and that is a good thing… I hope you will get the answers you are seeking and I will give you my thoughts on it…

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rikshaw:
…What does someone in Texas need to paddle 8mph for if they are drift fishing the shallows for reds and flounder? …8mph is too fast to troll for most fish out here… <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Every yak can go slow (just stop paddling!http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), but, not every yak can go fast! Like Jon said, “A more efficient hull will get us there with less effort…” but also in less time. The goal is to be at certain locations in the least amount of time so you can maximize the time you spend fishing. I really don’t care what the shape of the hull is (long/short, planning/displacement, wide/narrow, shaped like a cigar/sheet of plywood, etc.) as long as my goal is achieved. If there are other alternatives out there I would like to hear them. (I can hear KenL screaming Hobie right now http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) The cruising/top speed of the yak has nothing to do with the trolling speed, but more about getting to different fishing spots. Also, when fish are breaking, I don’t want to be here… I wanna be there, and now!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rikshaw:
...I like USABLE Storage, but once again... that is me” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I’m with you on that… most manufacturers really don’t consider the storage needs of the yak fisherman. When they designed their yak, they have the recreational paddler in mind. Consideration should be given to things such as deck layout, hatch locations, size of hatches, access to hatches, size, location, and access to tankwells, etc. One example of usable storage done right, is the Emotion Fisherman, where you can store and access everything including the kitchen sink! Maybe that amount of storage is a bit extreme, but it should be used as a model to follow in the theory/design stages.

Lastly, I can see where this thread is leading along with the nature of your questions and I will say/suggest the following:

We should start an evolving/growing document/discussion and call it a User Requirement (at least, that is what we call it in the Corporate world)

· Have Jon/Joey start a new Forum to accumulate/codify these ideas/discussions for you, beagle/Cobra/Emotion/WS/OK/etc. to reference if desired. Very valuable ideas/suggestions and feedback will be the result. We will all learn something.
· Start a new thread regarding for each design attribute so we can fully discuss, bash, and hash out what is wished for versus what can be delivered. For example, C0ckpit Layout – center hatch/no hatch, center rib, size shape, anticipated use/no center rib, footwell steps or smooth, scupper hole(s), etc. etc. By the time everyone is finished, you will know exactly what kind of yak is desired.
· Develop a checklist of sorts and consider where and how each design aspect will be used so you don’t end up with a regionalized product and may not be suitable to certain potential customers… for example, the discussion on the size of the WS T160 front hatch not being able to hold a yak cart… what is it going to be used for? what else will be stored? who is going to use it? when will it be used (any restrictions by weather/season)? where is it going to be use (West Coat, East Coast, Australia, high/low crime areas, etc.) Feedback should include all geographic locations and I’m sure billybob and his mates will pitch in when asked.

What do you say Ric?

Scott, 7-8 MH is already done regularly by the surf skis and I quote from a previously referenced site… “the FUTURA II can be paddled up to 8 knots [not just 8MPH], suitable for extreme conditions or for a camping trip…” The challenge now is to get that speed in a fishing yak. I would love to be able to attain that speed!!!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by beagle:
…”but if she performs well in the wind and the chop, and can make good time in those conditions, that's the yak I want… This yak only makes the nice days so much more enjoyable. I may be in the minority, but if I am, it won't be for long, as folks get more time on the water, I am guessing more folks will be looking for the same. I think we are starting to hear this in this very thread.” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I’m with you 100% on this one and consider my voice added!!! Let’s call this a design requirement, and I had (most of) it listed on my earlier detailed post in the beginning.

Jon, I agree with you about your suggestions for the Cobra Tourer and I have a couple of different suggestions to make, but that is the subject of a different thread/conversation. If it’s possible, morph the Heritage Expedition/T160 hull to a revised Tourer c0ckpit, and stretch it to 17’ or 18’, I think we are almost there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonS:
“More and more kayak fishermen are going to want performance with ergonomics. Neither has to be separate from each other. A redesigned top for the Exp. would be an big step in that direction and I know that the sales would be there.” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jon, you are soooooo right. If the manufacturers and their reps will take note of the number of views on this thread they will see the ticker just spinning off the dial… When I bumped this thread up on 1/13, I was on page 6 and the view count was about 3200… now take a look! We are now on page 9 and going strong with 4900 views. Even if you discount the moderators/administrators that check a couple of times a day, you will conclude that many folks are following this thread/topic… my conclusion?! YES, THERE IS DEFINITE INTEREST (i.e., A MARKET) IN HIGH PERFORMANCE FISHING SOT!!!

[rwolson]

IMHO, Jon, Scott and Ed summed it up pretty well.

Jon mentioned distance -
In New England, we have a very difficult time finding launch locations because many towns restrict parking to townies or launches don't exist because the coast is over built. We paddle distance to get to prime time fishing structure and in the fall, besides battling winds, chase flocks of birds following bait schools targeted by stripers and blues. Many of our days start out sunny and turn nasty in a hurry. Also, I expect the guys down the east coast run into the same conditions as we folks in NE.

Scott suggested rod storage. I've toyed with an idea of tethering a rod tube for my fly rods to the deck so I could access them when desired and protect them when not in use. One of the problems casting a fly rod, the fly always finds something to snag. Last year I carried two fly rods off the stern. When casting in windy conitions several times I wrapped a fly around the other rod.

Ed summed up the rest.

Rik, welcome aboard and looking forward to an exchange of ideas and lies (we're fishing people here)

[Santiago II]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rikshaw:
And Santiago II, Good to see you as well. I have not posted with you in quite a long time. There are several things that make prices higher. (I would still like some examples though of where Cobra is 30% more.) Materials used, Processes used, etc. All I can say is that Cobra uses only the highest quality of materials, we make our own models in house, we make our molds at our NZ facility, we actually mold our own kayaks in house, and yes, we build in very nice profit margins for our dealers like Jon and Joey. But again, as I stated previously... we ARE working to address some things right now and are planning on revised 2005 pricing very soon.


Ric <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


RIk,

Take the two examples from before

MII (603.00) vs. Tandem (793.00)

Sea Dart 17 (799.00) vs. Cobra Exped (1100.00+).

But competiton is a good thing for us fisherfolks. Hopefully that will give us that fast kayak.

[Santiago II]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott:
Hey I heard gas was 2 cents cheaper just across town http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If everyone buys their gas at the cheapest station, the other stations will have to lower their price to compete. Same capitalism drive the creation of better kayaks....see the connection?

[traderbob]

It sounds like a 18 foot touring boat but maybe a couple of inches wider for stability. Sit on top style with large front hatch for rolleze cart and tankwell behind the cockpit and lets not forget sides that flush mount rod holders work well with. A cockpit that takes ramballs for all our stuff and your not sitting in water and your feet are dry. And laid up in real light fiberglass for under $2500

[Scott]

when was the last time you saw gas stations lower their prices in competition? Yeah, the two on the corner, and the one down the street charges 8 cents more a gallon. I agree competition tends to make things better for consumers. Not sure that applies to kayak. Gas is Gas, same where ever, yaks is totally different. I think most yakkers will take the yak that most suits their needs and put cost as a second or third issue. In fact, you, if they come out with "the right yak", speed,layout, performance and a baby tush smooth bottom, are you going to drop double the price? 1500 bucks? Doubt it seriously, but I think alot of people would look at that and say that's the price of having "the" yak. Just my opinion of coursehttp://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Ken L]

I would imagine that a 19' fiberglass yak that's maybe 25" wide could serve as the basis for our 8 mph boat. But how many would have to be made to get the price down to $2500? Now how big is the market for $2500 fishing kayaks? How much would it weigh? It's going to be longer than your vehicle in all probability and you sure as hell better tie it down both front and rear. All that being said you're not going to drag it over the sand and rocks like we do with tupperware. I just don't know.

[Santiago II]

Why are we talking glass all of a sudden. CObra and Heritage both make their plastic boats in the 17-18 ft range.

[traderbob]

Well if I am right a fiberglass mold can be made from the prototype. And fiberglass production boats from the mold. I do not know if a hule mold can be taken from a proven kayak hule this might bring some sort of copyright infringment? I do know the top half will have to be hand carved as I do not think any of the big kayak company's have it right. This boat has to be styish like classic kayak hule with a cockpit that works. I think the tuff part will be having rod storage access and have a tankwell behind seat. Any of you big guys want to send me a foam blank WILL WORK FOR KAKAKS

[beagle]

Folks,
The boat is gonna have to be plastic(at this time). Plastic is forgiving and easly fixed/changed/drilled/ooops, I want that somewhere else.
Composite boats are a whole nother beast. Plastics, be it thermo formed, or molded, are the future of yaks. (Anyone old enough here to remember "The Graduate"?)
The price has got to come in under $1500.00, to sell big time. The research has been done.

[Scott]

I agree, 1500 is defintiely going ot be the price point. I won;t buy fiberglass. Beent here and done that with a lot of sailboats. and while you can fix oopsies, it's definitely easier with plastic. Although there are some prodcts with glas...but ti'll never hold up to what we want to do to them http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I still think the key here is listening to the consumers and integrating as much versatility into the yak as possible. There will never be the "perfect yak" but we can all agree on some basic must haves. Scott

[Santiago II]

Lets be real. Heritage sells their 17 footer for 799. Why should we expect to have it cost more than 1000.00 (or less)

[Santiago II]

At it's most basic we need the existing hull with a redesigned topside, better hatches, and a ruddder set-up. What else are we looking for? Future mods could be made from a very basic topside redesign.

[mrsinbad]

I'm still liking the idea of KFS, LLC. http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=253102653

[JonS]

I agree, where did the fiberglass come from? Also why 18-19'? http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=582102653. I for one would never buy a glass yak. There is at least one hull in existence that is very close to what we need/want from a performance standpoint. Laying out a new top is not difficult. I'm with SII also. Why talk $1500 when the hull is $799. With mods and rudder, hatches, etc. it'll still be well under.

Ed, you start a company as I'm not interested. http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=882102653 Let the kayak companies make kayaks. I'll sell them for now.

[beagle]

I only threw the $1500.00 number out there as the very max of what could sell at the numbers to make $$.
The cost of the Hobie Fisherman, tricked out, exceeds this price.
One of the points that the makers try and use to their advantage is that there are an awful lot of yak sales to the same family because of the 1st buyer of that family. There are a lot of familys with yaks because "Dad/husband" has one, the wife has one, offspring want one, etc. The price must be kept as low as possible so that it doesn't cost someone a wad of dough to outfit the family.

[Scott]

why not just take one of the plastic SIK and convert the deck? I'm willing to bet you're not going to get your yak for 799. Call me crazy, but you're looking at a semi-specialty market. there are yak companies out there getting 1500 for thier yaks and selling a lot of them. If you get the Hull for a grand and with accesories you're going to be be in the 12-1300 range. Still a fairly hefty price. S

PS, but better than 1500 http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Scott]

been doing some research on this... "William Froude showed that the speed of waves in knots = 1.34 x L^1/2 where L is the boat's length in feet.
Froude discovered that as the boat's speed increases the number of waves along the hull decreases until the boat moves between a big wave at the bow and a big wave at the stern. From this point increasing the boat's speed becomes much more difficult, or in other words the boat reached its "Hull Speed".
A boat 100% longer than another will have a nominal hull speed that's about 42% higher (0.42 linear correlation). For example: the hull speed of a 20 ft boat is 6 knots and that of a 10 ft boat is 4.23 knots.
However, the longer boat will generate about 100% more skin friction (Fr). Consequently moving it at its higher hull speed will require adding more than 42% in power."

Very interesting I thought. scott

addendum: I'm sure they are talking about waterline length here. the amount of boat above the water line should have little effect. If you look back at the old R boats and J boats that sailed the Americas cup in the early years, their long overhangs were there to allow for extreme healing of the boat, this essentially added many feet to the LWL (length at the waterline). Scott

[Scott]

in fact here's the site, check it out. very interesting stuff. Scott

http://www.wavewalk.com/COMPARISON.html

[traderbob]

When I mentioned composit I was thinking of my back a boat that is 20 lbs lighter is better for me even if it cost $3000 and composit might be a little faster.

[Santiago II]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott:
why not just take one of the plastic SIK and convert the deck? I'm willing to bet you're not going to get your yak for 799. Call me crazy, but you're looking at a semi-specialty market. there are yak companies out there getting 1500 for thier yaks and selling a lot of them. If you get the Hull for a grand and with accesories you're going to be be in the 12-1300 range. Still a fairly hefty price. S

PS, but better than 1500 http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scott, you're crazy! Making this kayak is no different than making any other kayak. It's no more of a specialty item than many of the kayaks out there. The price shouldn't be any different than any other boat in the same size range.

[Santiago II]

Scott,

When you're calcluating drag based on wetted surface don't forget these longer boats often have beams 10" less than the shorter boats.

[dmac]

Heritage EXP with Cobra tourer deck.....Simple...with that new light/stiff plastic.Keep it under $900 and you have a home run http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=811107247

Doug M

[Santiago II]

I'm with dmac. That's about all it would take. The downside of those hatches though is that they're not as watertight as I would prefer, but the topside layout is just abouty perfect.

The other good news is that the Heritage design gives you more topside width to work with than the Cobra boat.

[Rikshaw]

Santiago II...

OK, Back to Prices. Again, you need to compare apples to apples.

First there is the material used. This makes a difference in cost, and again... we use a Med/High Density (I believe there are 6 different grades) of Super Linear Poly Ethelene, the Best moldable plastic material on the market. This is what allows us to make light weight boats with a lifetime warranty, vs a 1 year warranty.

Second - Lets look at the boats you listed.

Seadart 17 - vs - Cobra Expedition
17'4" - vs - 18'
26" wide - vs - 23.5" wide
Weighs 73 lbs - vs - weighs 48 lbs
max capacity of 300 lbs - vs - max capacity of 425 lbs.
Seadart 17 - 1 Scupper hole, no molded in foot rests, severly limited below deck storage with no chance of putting a wheel cart inside, with fore and aft bulk heads.

Ocean Kayak Malibu 2 - vs - Cobra Tandem
12' - vs - 12'6"
34" wide - vs - 36" wide
58 lbs - vs - 57 lbs
425 max capacity - vs - 600 lbs max capacity

Now have you ever paddled an OK Malibu 2? I would strongly suggest you speak with people that have, and then speak with people that have a Cobra Tandem. There is a HUGE difference.

OK would not have come out with the Malibu 2 XL if the original Malibu 2 was a decent kayak, and heck, the Malibu 2 XL, at 13'4" still only has a max capacity of 500 lbs. Then there is the fact you can only ad 2 round and one oval gaspachi hatches, which you CANNOT sit on BTW for fishing and such.

The Ocean Kayak Zest Two EXP, which most closely resembles the Cobra Tandem in performance and capacity... Guess what? MSRP for the base model is $799.00

Ad in molding time, finishing time, and on and on. Look at the Heritage kayak. Nice yak, but straight forward and pretty simple. Now look at a tourer or an expedition. A bit more complex, which means more time designing, more time making molds, more time making parts, and on and on....

Santiago, I respectfully disagree with you. Gas is NOT all the same. I regularly spend more for Shell gas out here because I feel it gives me better performance than ARCO or other brands, and just because Arco drops their prices, I do not expect Chevron and Shell to, because while thay all might be 91 Octane, they do not all have the same detergents in them for my fuel injectors, they do not all burn as clean, and they are NOT the same.

Neither are Kayaks.

And as to fiberglass or other HI PERFORMANCE fishing kayaks... Lets go over a few things.
1 - Fiberglass - Extremely rigid and VERY delicate. Not the best for outfitting as ANY hole drilled or cut can lead to structural failure under stress. VERY EXPENSIVE. Difficult to repair. No Scupper holes so No Self Draining.
2 - Molded PE - Do you honestly KNOW how many manufacturers and Roto Molders here in the US can actually rotationally mold kayaks over 15' in length? NOT MANY. The ovens are huge and expensive as heck. Most bi-axial ovens run over $150,000.00, and we, for example, have three ovens, yet only one has the capacity to make boats over 15' long.

It can be done... but think about the size of the molds? Who casts 20 foot long molds? How do you handle them? Where do you get them maintained? You see, there are many other things to consider besides simply saying "Build It"

Don't get me wrong, this discussion still has tremendous possibilities and I am very interested in hearing what you all have to say. Just realize that making changes is not simply as easy as saying "Yeah! Let's do it." There are MANY logistical challenges which need to be taken into account also.

Ric Hawthorne
Cobra Kayaks

[mrsinbad]

SII, as long as the mold is not made, it would not be difficult to use a rectangular sailboat hatch like the ones that are used in the Emotion Fisherman instead of the Viking A hatches... Any other changes?

[Rikshaw]

Santiago II,

You made the following comment

"Scott, you're crazy! Making this kayak is no different than making any other kayak. It's no more of a specialty item than many of the kayaks out there. The price shouldn't be any different than any other boat in the same size range."

OK... Where do I start...

Say we start with dmac's suggestion and mate a Tourer top to a Heritage hull...
New Model
New Mold
OK... We have it now.

As I said, we have 1 oven capable of running a mold this size, many kayak companies, such as MK, do not even have the ability to run a boat over 15'

So, taking that into account, I have a NEW Mold for a NEW Yak, which can only be run on ONE oven, and this one oven is already making our Cobra Quad, Cobra Expedition, Cobra Eliminator, and Cobra Triple.

Hmmm.... 260 work days a year... one boat takes about 2.25 hours to mold, cool and pull... ad up the number of units a year we currently sell of EXISTING models, guesstimate the number of highperformance Fishing Kayaks we HOPE to sell (What do you think? 100? 250? 300? 500? We have to amortize the cost of the model and mold somewhere.)\

Add it all up, and we are talking added shifts in our plant, increased workmans comp fees, increased utility bills, increased supervisors salaries, and so on...

And this Kayak is not a SPECIALTY Item?

Santiago II, feel free to come on a tour of our plant anytime you are out in CA. Trust me... It is not as easy as you think it is.

Ric Hawthorne
Cobra Kayaks

[beagle]

Hi Ric,
Resin.
Are you saying you usea med/high density metallocene resin, or med and high? Superlinear is a trade marked name.
These resins have their place but are no magic bullet. Not used in often the white water market as it's to brittle.
Unless Cobra has stumbled on to some new amazing resin discovery, it's no different Muelstein's "Aquatuff", A. Shulman's "Superlinear", or any one of a 1/2 dozen other metallocene resins on the market. Been there, seen it. All makers like to rename their resins as marketing stategies to set themselfs apart from the rest. You shoot me the spec sheet on that resin and I'll wager I can pull up a spec sheet from another resin maker that is the same stuff, and I'll tell you what other makers are using similar resins. Your mettallocene resin isn't costing you anymore than any other maker out there. If it is, renegotiate your price.
Side note;
Almost every resin maker passed along a 10% increase in Dec, I am told another 5% is coming this month and another 5% in March. There is a delay on the resin industry when fuel prices rise as they have.
I still want to see that 48# boat on the scales.
Your 2.25 time for that yak your talking about is completly built, correct? If you are telling me your cook,cool, and pull is 2.25 hours Cobra will have to raise that price some. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Rikshaw]

Beagle,

Never said anything about using Resin. I stated we use a med/high Density Superlinear Polyethelene, which we purchase in a powdered form.

Low Density will not hold a shape well at all.

Medium Density is probably the most commonly used as it holds a shape well and can really take a beating.

High Density would hold a molded shape superbly, but the material would be so brittle that it would crack on impacts with rocks, docks, and other items.

We use a blend that comes out as a Med/Hig Density. Flexible enough to take a beating, yet rigid enough to allow thinner parts that will maintain a shape well.

Superlinear is not our term, but rather our plastics supplier.

Here, check this article out.

http://www.wavelengthmagazine.com/2003/dj03rapid.php

The times I gave are approximations as different yaks take different amounts of time, and besides... why would I want to talk specifics on a public board about or processes? ;-)

You got my point anyway though I see... concerning costs and the difficulty of molding big ass kayaks and why costs are what they are.

Feel free to weigh our boats. We just went through and had to re-weigh them all to check for accuracy this week as a matter of fact when we found the guyzos using the weight of raw material for a FnD on the Navigators. Guess they got confused. LOL

And lastly, prices will be different for the raw powders depending on the density blend, the base colors selected and the weights purchased.

Have a great day.

Ric

[JonS]

Considering that I'm one dealer and I would easily sell a hundred of such afformentioned kayaks may give an idea as to the market. We sell lots of Prowlers and will sell lots of 160tws when they're available. Neither is in a class of the type of kayak we're talking about. I'm not saying whether or not Cobra should built such a yak. Cobra, is at this time, upgrading which I applaud. I hope that eventually someone's going to build such a yak however I sell whatever is available and choose the most viable models from several manufacturers. Ric I'm glad that you're reading this thread as that's more then most are doing.

[beagle]

Hi Ric,
Let's not get to nit picking...but I used the term resin because that's what your supplier and the plastics industry calls it. PE Resin.
I should say I am a rotomolder, could ya guess? http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And am very closely involved in the R&D'ing of new materials, testing ect. You tell me the shot weight, and I'll tell ya how long it'll take ya to get the boat out of the mold.
I hear what your saying, trade secrets and all, but nothing is really secret.
http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Rikshaw]

Beagle... other than for you... who here would want specifics? Do I really need to provide exact times for 4 completely different kayaks, or can we agree that speaking in generalities, my point is still valid?

No matter what, the kayak we are talking about, while worthwile to discuss and possibly even feasible to actually produce, would still be a SPECIALTY kayak with limited appeal in the overall kayak market, and it would be a fairly costly endeavor.

Ric

[Santiago II]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rikshaw:
Santiago II...

OK, Back to Prices. Again, you need to compare apples to apples.

First there is the material used. This makes a difference in cost, and again... we use a Med/High Density (I believe there are 6 different grades) of Super Linear Poly Ethelene, the Best moldable plastic material on the market. This is what allows us to make light weight boats with a lifetime warranty, vs a 1 year warranty.

Second - Lets look at the boats you listed.

Seadart 17 - vs - Cobra Expedition
17'4" - vs - 18'
26" wide - vs - 23.5" wide
Weighs 73 lbs - vs - weighs 48 lbs
max capacity of 300 lbs - vs - max capacity of 425 lbs.
Seadart 17 - 1 Scupper hole, no molded in foot rests, severly limited below deck storage with no chance of putting a wheel cart inside, with fore and aft bulk heads.

Ocean Kayak Malibu 2 - vs - Cobra Tandem
12' - vs - 12'6"
34" wide - vs - 36" wide
58 lbs - vs - 57 lbs
425 max capacity - vs - 600 lbs max capacity

Now have you ever paddled an OK Malibu 2? I would strongly suggest you speak with people that have, and then speak with people that have a Cobra Tandem. There is a HUGE difference.

OK would not have come out with the Malibu 2 XL if the original Malibu 2 was a decent kayak, and heck, the Malibu 2 XL, at 13'4" still only has a max capacity of 500 lbs. Then there is the fact you can only ad 2 round and one oval gaspachi hatches, which you CANNOT sit on BTW for fishing and such.

The Ocean Kayak Zest Two EXP, which most closely resembles the Cobra Tandem in performance and capacity... Guess what? MSRP for the base model is $799.00

Ad in molding time, finishing time, and on and on. Look at the Heritage kayak. Nice yak, but straight forward and pretty simple. Now look at a tourer or an expedition. A bit more complex, which means more time designing, more time making molds, more time making parts, and on and on....

Santiago, I respectfully disagree with you. Gas is NOT all the same. I regularly spend more for Shell gas out here because I feel it gives me better performance than ARCO or other brands, and just because Arco drops their prices, I do not expect Chevron and Shell to, because while thay all might be 91 Octane, they do not all have the same detergents in them for my fuel injectors, they do not all burn as clean, and they are NOT the same.

Neither are Kayaks.

And as to fiberglass or other HI PERFORMANCE fishing kayaks... Lets go over a few things.
1 - Fiberglass - Extremely rigid and VERY delicate. Not the best for outfitting as ANY hole drilled or cut can lead to structural failure under stress. VERY EXPENSIVE. Difficult to repair. No Scupper holes so No Self Draining.
2 - Molded PE - Do you honestly KNOW how many manufacturers and Roto Molders here in the US can actually rotationally mold kayaks over 15' in length? NOT MANY. The ovens are huge and expensive as heck. Most bi-axial ovens run over $150,000.00, and we, for example, have three ovens, yet only one has the capacity to make boats over 15' long.

It can be done... but think about the size of the molds? Who casts 20 foot long molds? How do you handle them? Where do you get them maintained? You see, there are many other things to consider besides simply saying "Build It"

Don't get me wrong, this discussion still has tremendous possibilities and I am very interested in hearing what you all have to say. Just realize that making changes is not simply as easy as saying "Yeah! Let's do it." There are MANY logistical challenges which need to be taken into account also.

Ric Hawthorne
Cobra Kayaks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rik,

The fact that you spend more on gas tells me something right their.

As far as "apples to apples" The MII and Sea Dart are close enough to your boats to make me look at them and then, once compared to the Cobras, buy the other boats. I've had 2 MIIs and one Sea Dart 17 and like both boats.

Might be Ida Reds to Macintoshes but they're still apples to me.

OK to defend your products but if you get too selective with your facts, we're going to suspect your motives, and lose our trust.

But you're here and you got our ear and we all respect that.

[Scott]

SII, I'm crazy???? everyone here looking at speed is debating the difference between 5.5 mph and 6.5 mph, or even 7.5 mph. That's at balls the wall paddeling...for how long? 3 miles??? 1/4 mile. How far away can you see a boil/birds and expect to race to them. I'm talking racing. Cause that's where you're going to see the max speed differences. So a mile??? My yak will be there in just under 12 minutes? yours just under 9 minutes??? Someone double check my rough math here. 3 minutes of ball busting paddeling. Do you believe in most instances, that 3 minutes is the make or break in fishing? If you're putting in atpoint A and fishing is 6 miles away at point B, are you paddeling full blast, the whole way? Not fishing, not trolling? I think when you start factoring in everything the difference on speed becomes less and less a factor to the ability of the kayak to meet our needs as fisherman.

I'd rather see the R&D go into a truly fisherman friendly yak with rod storage, hatches, deck and hull for the masses. Not a barge, but a reasonable respectably performing yak. The yak you're describig is not a masses yak. How many times have we mentioned the T120 isn;t for the ehavier guy, the Scupper Pro for the wider guy, the prowler for the taller guy(???) Anyway, this faster yak will quickly fall into that rank. It's a specialty yak out of the box. Better chances for success in a yak that meets the mass fishermans needs. My opinon, but you're welcome to insult me some more here on the boardshttp://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Sometimes it's easy to look at the obvious and see no reason not to expect everyone to do it. You and I have discussed this a million times about cars. No reason an econobox can't look like a miata. Cheap too. But the industry says people will pay for it...and they do. S

[Rikshaw]

OK Scott... LOL

I'll bite. What does my buying more expensive gas tell you?

Ric

[Rikshaw]

Oops... that was for Santiago II

Ric

[Ken L]

Scott, I couldn't agree with you more. How long can I maintain that effort and for what? If I could keep it up for 2 minutes that extra 1 MPH might get me there thirty seconds sooner. If I could keep it up for that long.
If anybody can show me real evidence in the difference between gasoline brands I'll buy them lunch. There are supposedly extra detergents in the higher octanes but down here where they refine the stuff the Exxon station just got filled up by an Exxon tank truck full of shell gas. With modern knock sensors you can't tell what octane you just bought in the course of normal driving. And don't get me started on 3000 mile oil changes. You want to reduce dependence on imports? Follow the owners manual.
Sorry about the rant.

[Rikshaw]

Ken...

When I lived in NM, and OR I would have agreed with you. I have seen trucks from one company deliver gas to another's station. It seems all they do is change the coloring in the fuel, but Out here in good old screwed up Cali, home of MTBE and all the other good ideas gone wrong... I HAVE noticed a difference.

I have a High reving little Turbo German Jobber-do and the owners manual recommends 93 Octane, but since all we have out here, short of racing fuel, is 91... that's what I run, but I'll swear on my Dog that Texaco Gas makes my car idle like hell and rough on take off's, so I NEVER use it, and with gas like Arco(BP) and Thrifty, I just do not seem to get the same milage I do with Shell. Chevron seems about second best.

And don't even try 87 or 89 Octane in my car... knock knock knock....

Go Figure.

Ric

[Scott]

So when are we getting some new looks at these new yak Rik? http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Scott

[Scott]

SII came over and we figured this all so We're going to let you guys figure out the resthttp://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif scott


PS, I'm still waiting for "the yak" S

[Rikshaw]

Which one do you want to see? ;-)

The Escape was shown at the San Diego Boat Show and has been getting a great response and we are pulling and molding them to beat the band.

The very First Fish-n-Dive/XF was pulled today, trimmed, hatched out, fitted with seats and lines, and now resides on the roof of my car for weekend, ahem... testing. LOL

And other things are proceeding as planned.

Sorry if I seem a bit cryptic, but I'm not going to ruin the other surprises we have in store.

Ric

[beagle]

Hi Rik,
I will disagree with you on the yak of topic, being a "specialty" item. Designing a performance yak, that is well suited to the fishing masses, would still be a good yak, for those who do not fish. Reverse engineering mentality, is what's needed here. What the idustry has done for to long, is design a yak the is geared in the other direction.
I would also ask those who think they will be paddling at a rate not able to be sustained, need to paddle a smooth paddling, longer yak.
If you haven't, do so, be it a SIK or SOT, do it, and you will be surprised.
Yes, efficient speed is desirable. On the east, we have many places where you can fish in a "lee". Small islands, bays, salt marshes, where I may wish to cross a body of unfishable(due to conditions) water, to reach a place where I can fish. 1 knot, one mph, you bet it matters. Chasin birds and bait, again, it matters. My time? Yep, it matters.
2cents

[ProwlerGuy]

Rik, you stick with your barge Fisn n Dives, and keep on just they way you are, buying that more expensive gas; don't change. Me, I'll stick with my fast, stable, and tremendous all around OK Prowler 15 when I'm all by myself, but when I'm tandem I'll stick with my very speedy Zest Two, unless I'm able to get a new, improved Zest Two. Respectfully speaking, Prowlerguy sends

[Scott]

Hey Beagle, it's not a skill thing, maybe an endurance/overall health thingy, but again, most of us are fisherman first, then paddlers. I agree with the engineering. It's geared to the wrong crowd.

Hey PG where are you now, Okinawa, florida or Germany? http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Rikshaw]

Naw... FnD is not my style. It's still a great yak for those just getting into the sport, big guys, and many others where Initial Stability is a huge MUST HAVE as well as tons of internal storage.

I'm just testing the new one out this weekend, the new FnD/XF, but for regular use, I'll stick to my Tourer.

As to the Zest 2... Good Yak that paddles well and has a nice usable capacity for many different types of outings.

Enjoy.

Ric

[Rikshaw]

Scott,

That is one thing I completely agree with you on, but luckily guys like Bernie, Jon, Joey. Cliff Blair, Riddler, and many others here can attest to... I have the opposite problem in designing yaks... I approach them all to be fishing kayaks.

Believe it or not, I have remind myself to advertise, design and market things to recreational paddlers as well. I get so caught up in fishing yaks that I tend to get tunnel vision.

What I am really interested in now though is the key differences between West Coast, Gulf Coast, and East Coast Fishing... I think I need a research trip.

LOL

Ric

[beagle]

Aahh Ric,
See, once you put out, that you are working for/with, a maker, you set yourself(maybe not imtentionally) up for being a "target".
I believe, you said you worked for another maker, before Cobra. Would you, at that time, be touting the greatness of Cobra, over your employer at that time?
It's my opinion(what's that worth? http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=582102653),
that the best contribution to the cause, from those who know, should have no affiliation to the makers. It should be honest,(and ya can't do that if ya post yer name and affiliation) and staight up dope. Please do not read this as myself attacking your honesty or integrity,...but, how long would you have the position you have if your company were to read you stating any negatives about your present company and touting the benefits of another?
I( doesn't make me right), have worked for several makers, but have done my best, not to let on which one's. There isn't any one maker, doing it all correct. Not the designers, owners, eggheads, or dreamers. I won't speak for Jon S, but I have always viewed this site, and others, as a forum to try and "get it right". I have many times been in the middle of threads that involved the company I was working for at the time, good, bad, indifferent, and only added info, not party line. Probebly because I was involved in production, and not sales. Pay is stable, not based on numbers. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[scwafish]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Escape was shown at the San Diego Boat Show and has been getting a great response and we are pulling and molding them to beat the band.

The very First Fish-n-Dive/XF was pulled today, trimmed, hatched out, fitted with seats and lines, and now resides on the roof of my car for weekend, ahem... testing. LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For gods sake man...PICS!

[Santiago II]

Beagle,

You have no idea how much some of us appreciate your objectivity and knowledge base. Rock on!

[mrsinbad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As posted by Rickshaw:
No matter what, the kayak we are talking about, while worthwile to discuss and possibly even feasible to actually produce, would still be a SPECIALTY kayak with limited appeal in the overall kayak market,... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ric, maybe you mis-spoke about the "specialty" aspect of the yak we are discussing, but it worries me that your statment is a reflection of the existing attitude of other kayak manufacturers. As you stated later that you are more a kayakfisherman than a yak designer... but let me use this analogy to make my point===>> Every wooden shipbuilder is a carpenter, but not every carpenter is a wooden shipbuilder.

So, as it applies to our High Performance Fishing Kayak ("HPFK"), every fishing kayak is a recreational kayak, but not every recreational kayak is a fishing kayak. Thus, if this HPFK comes to fruition, it can be used by recreational paddlers/divers/campers/nature lovers/etc., etc., etc. and is DEFINITELY NOT A SPECIALTY ITEM WITH LIMITED APPEAL. It will offer greater stability (at some expense of speed), but there will be customers looking for that in a long yak (like I was considering when I was looking at the Carolina yak many years ago). Now, I noticed you qualified what you said by saying, "the overall kayak market..." The same statement could be said about white water yaks as compared to the overall kayak market, rowing shells as compared to the overall kayak market, etc. etc. but I think you get my point.

What I hope to do is to change your way of thinking (and maybe other kayak manufacturers) to see that this HPFK is really not a specialty item or a niche product where there is little or no appeal to other yakkers out there. Afterall, what are we asking for? A more stable hull, changes to the c0ckpit for mounting accessories, larger hatches, larger tankwell... Almost everything else we are asking for would be something any yak designer would ask of recreational kayak that is being developed (I even went back to my original post to confirm this). So this HPFK is not such a specialty item after all, and it's useable by many different paddlers, not just fishermen.

[Rikshaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by beagle:
Aahh Ric,
See, once you put out, that you are working for/with, a maker, you set yourself(maybe not imtentionally) up for being a "target".
I believe, you said you worked for another maker, before Cobra. Would you, at that time, be touting the greatness of Cobra, over your employer at that time?
It's my opinion(what's that worth? http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=582102653),
that the best contribution to the cause, from those who know, should have no affiliation to the makers. It should be honest,(and ya can't do that if ya post yer name and affiliation) and staight up dope. Please do not read this as myself attacking your honesty or integrity,...but, how long would you have the position you have if your company were to read you stating any negatives about your present company and touting the benefits of another?
I( doesn't make me right), have worked for several makers, but have done my best, not to let on which one's. There isn't any one maker, doing it all correct. Not the designers, owners, eggheads, or dreamers. I won't speak for Jon S, but I have always viewed this site, and others, as a forum to try and "get it right". I have many times been in the middle of threads that involved the company I was working for at the time, good, bad, indifferent, and only added info, not party line. Probebly because I was involved in production, and not sales. Pay is stable, not based on numbers. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beagle,

I guess you have a different idea of "Touting" than I do as I don't recall saying ANY Cobra Kayak is the end all be all kayak.

Yes, I do make myself a target. I find it easier to keep my stories straight if I am simply honest about my affiliations up front, and while Santiago II and I might disagree on certain points, I respect his input tremendously. I think he put it best when he stated in this very thread "Well,
When Rik worked for Malibu, I bought a Malibu, so we'll see what magic Rik can work at Cobra."

I am in this thread because I am interested in what the kayakers here want.

You may not be aware of this, but I am not new to this forum and have been a poster for several years. My Mantra when I was with Malibu Kayaks was the same as it is now... Try as many different kayaks as you can and find that one that suits your individual needs best.

And that will not change.

All Kayaks are a compromise and improvements can ALWAYS be made. A boat that works well for person "A" may be terrible for person "B".

Luckily though, I work for a company that embraces honesty and does not shy away from honest criticisms.

This approach allows me to say that I think the Prowler is one of the most Beautiful Kayaks on the market today - I simply wish they had designed in some usable storage and had a better deck layout.

It allows me to say that I think the eXtreme is one of the all around best fishing kayaks ever made - just far too heavy.

It also allows me to say honestly that with the exception of a slow, but extremely stable kayak... Cobra Kayaks has not been a player in the Fishing Kayak market in the past few years, but that's why I am with them, and I believe in where they are headed.

You stated correctly that no maker, designer, or egg head has got it all right so far, but the posters here like Riddler, Cliff Blair, Bernie, scwafish, Jon, Santiago II, and others (I hope) will vouch for the fact that I come here to listen, to learn, to be a face for a company that truely WANTS to listen, as well as to promote the sport of Kayak fishing and to be an accessable source directly to a company, without hiding behind a Nickname.

I am biased. I freely admit it, but I have also NEVER stated here, or on any board, that any MK OR Cobra Kayak is the end all be all Kayak.

Because no matter what we do and no matter what we make, there will ALWAYS more to learn. The more the sport evolves and as kayak fisherman adapt and refine their needs, we can only continue to be relevant if we LISTEN.

Peace.

Ric Hawthorne
Cobra Kayaks

[Rikshaw]

Mrsinbad,

No need to change the way I think my friend. If I did not think the points being brought up were valid, I would not ask questions to find out the WHY's of how this thread started and how this can benefit you East Coasters.

To clarify my reason for saying this kayak would be a specialty kayak, let me say this... in recreational kayaking, not white water, people can grab a 10' to 14' kayak and fart around, have fun, kayak fish, go out with the family, and have a blast.

This is the MAIN SOT market that I lose sight off sometimes.

Now, there are what? 1500 registered posters on this site, and how many lurkers? Now, out of say 3000 readers overall, how many do you think would want this kayak? Jon says 100. OK, even with just registered posters... that is still less than 1%.

So I look at how many Expeditions we sell in a year, and see that while it is still a very worthwhile kayak to make... it is really only for serious kayakers and experienced paddlers. So the expedition is a Specialty kayak in our line. Even more so for the Eliminator.

Again... please do not think I mean the kayak is not worth exploring... rather that it is not a boat that will have the broad appeal of other styles.

Sorry if that was not clear.

Ric

[JonS]

A faster SOT would not be a specialty kayak. Cobra for one is already making 2 kayaks that have a much smaller appeal then such a yak. The Expedition and that long skinny rowing yak (I forget the name).

Whether one wants to call it speed or efficieny over the water its an important attirbute to have. I'm with beagle, if a kayak will cruise at 1 mph more then a 160 or P15 and is still stable and has good ergonomics then its a very viable kayak in the general marketplace. I want one and so do a lot of folks. As beagle stated not all the water we cross is fishable. To cross such waters as efficiently as possible and still have a viable fishing kayak is important. Such a craft will make places fishable that aren't at present. Ruge13 uses a touring SIK to go from the mainland of Cape Cod over to Martha's Vineyard. That's doable in such an efficient yak but something I wouldn't want to do in any present SOTs and I don't want the compromise of having to fish out of a touring SIK. However having a SOT that could do it opens up lots of places. In our area Fisher's Island, lots of areas in the western Sound, etc. I started using a Hobie Outback this fall and besides the hands free aspect of the kayak the thing that I like the most is the increased range of the kayak. It doesn't cruise any faster however it's so efficient that I can cover 2-3 times the distance for the same effort. That allows me to fish areas I wasn't able to reach before. Since any other kayak will be a paddle craft increased cfficiency of the hull is required to achieve the same thing. Just because a kayak is faster doesn't mean I need to use the top speed. Top speed isn't as usefull as efficiency but such a craft would cruise appreciably faster too. That saves energy and as animals we have a finite amount of energy. Top speed is important though when racing to breaking fish. We have a fun saying regarding this too. "How long does a blitz last?" Answer "As long as the slowest kayak in the group takes to get there". When fish are racing and blitzing about seconds do matter. Getting within casting range and putting a cast within a pod of albies is a such an example. Getting within range 1 minute sooner can make all the difference. Do it several times and its the difference of a great day of catching fish or going home without a hook up.
Last June we encountered a school of big stripers in the Atlantic off the outer Cape Cod beaches. I was in a P15 which was the most efficient kayak in the group that consisted of 3 P15s, a 120 and an EF. Other then Rich in the EF I was probably in the best shape of the group of 5 we had. The school, as they tend to do was moving against the tide. It took a significant effort to catch up to the fish. You'd then place a cast and by the time you landed (the fish averaged 37") the fish the school was a 1/4 mile uptide again. So you had to paddle back up to them place another cast. Each fish required the same effort. I took a bunch a pictures and still managed to land a dozen fish. Low hook was 3 fish. Counts varied with how much effort you were willing to give to stay with the fish. A more efficient and faster hull like a Heritage Exp. would have made it easier and would have resulted in more fish.

The 160 and P15 weren't created to be fishing kayaks however they've become the top choices in this class as they're the best in this performance genre that still fish well and are adaptable. A better hull will still appeal to all the non anglers those models were created for. If its a cut above both anglers and other users would gravitate to it and it would take a significant market share from the aforementioned kayaks.

[scwafish]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"How long does a blitz last?" Answer "As long as the slowest kayak in the group takes to get there". When fish are racing and blitzing about seconds do matter. Getting within casting range and putting a cast within a pod of albies is a such an example. Getting within range 1 minute sooner can make all the difference. Do it several times and its the difference of a great day of catching fish or going home without a hook up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. I am generally racing powerboats, but I always get the jump. Getting there ANY sooner is HUGE for me. If I'm using binoculars, sometimes the run-down is a over a mile away. During the topwater season I paddle like a maniac...half for the fish, and half for the work out. If I can catch more in the process...GREAT.

Also like I said on the phone, for other groups as well such as competitive freedivers, its a dragrace from start to finish. They will take any edge they can get.

[Scott]

JOn, that is the magic quote..."if a kayak will cruise at 1 mph more then a 160 or P15 and is still stable and has good ergonomics then its a very viable kayak in the general marketplace" I'm interested in what you(the collective industry) can do to the T160 hull to squeak a 13-18% increase out of her and still maintian stability, and, oh yea, don't forget the deck layout.

In Rik's defense, He's not saying they have this yak built, I don't believe. He says he has some new things coming out and I, for one, am interested in seeing what it is.

Still going to end up with a T120, and maybe something great for the long fast yak http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This has gone 12 pages and I think we are still where we started, there are needs for the yak fisherman, that when factored into a yak will make a truly great fishing yak, and a yak usable by the rec population. Right now we continue to see the design of SOT kayaks looking at the rec paddler first then how can we throw a rod hoder here, an anchor cleat there, to make it a fishing yak. Now who's going to belly up to the bar and design a fishing kayak?

[ProwlerGuy]

Scott and everbody else,

Wow this thread is going fast. I'm now in Mannheim, Germany which sits on the Rhein river, and there are a lot of other water areas around here, but its all fresh water. I may be here awhile, so looks like I've got to make the best of it. Most of my 56 years I've been very near salt water so this is a switch. Furthermore, its cold, and I'm like a fish out of water. I'm looking out my back window to my four yaks. I think I'll go out, brush off the snow and ice, in sit in my Prowler till I get blue; hmmm maybe I'll just stay out till I freeze to death, or catch something and die. Oh the misery of this. I am originally a Cracker, having graduated from Ft. Lauderdale High School in 1967, and spent most of my life in the Marine Corps or in warm weather. Oh ramble, ramble..... Oh, woe is me.

Please say something nice to calm me down.

Respectfully, Prowler guy sends

[Ken L]

I'm with Rik on this or at least I see his point. What would have to happen to satisfy the board would I think, be a low volume item that would be expensive to make. I wouldn't buy an Expedition for fishing because it's too long for me to store and it isn't stable enough. I couldn't use it on most rivers either. That's just me but I'm not alone. When all of US are out of the picture how big is the market? I don't know but then how big is the market now? I could be wrong but I don't see kayak manufacturers as takeover targets any time soon.

[Santiago II]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ken L:
I'm with Rik on this or at least I see his point. What would have to happen to satisfy the board would I think, be a low volume item that would be expensive to make. I wouldn't buy an Expedition for fishing because it's too long for me to store and it isn't stable enough. I couldn't use it on most rivers either. That's just me but I'm not alone. When all of US are out of the picture how big is the market? I don't know but then how big is the market now? I could be wrong but I don't see kayak manufacturers as takeover targets any time soon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ken,

Now I hate to disagree with you, but you're going after the "Tarpon 160+" market. That includes those who want to move up to a bigger kayak in addition to those who already have one. In addition you also will attract recreational paddlers who want a fast boat, which is a big part of the SIK market. As Jon says, this isn't only about building a fishing boat. The hull characteristics are more in line with classic SIK market. It is we fishermen who are finally getting on board with long fast kayaks. Plenty of other folks have been there a long time. This is not just a specialty boat, it is a crossover boat.

I would be happy to do focus groups to define the market, but I'll leave that to those who wish to reap the rewards.

Personally, as long as we're having this discussion, I think we should work on our design preferences and a features "wish list". I know Ed can do this with his eyes closed, but if someones listening, lets tell them what we want.

Material:

Weight range:

Length:

Beam:

FOrward deck:

Forward hatch:

Cockpit:

Cockpit storage features:

Seat:

Area rear of cockpit:


Rear hatch:

TW?

Additional Features:

WHy don't we "linux" this hypothetical kayak while we're wasting band width.

[Rikshaw]

Not sure what a "linux' is... But I would love to see a specific wish list for a list of items such as you outlined.

Ric

[Santiago II]

And how about looking at some of the designs that have a few of the features we might want <pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> </pre>

[Santiago II]

And of course the Sea Dart 17

[Santiago II]

And of course the T140

[Santiago II]

And finally, the T160

[Scott]

Hey Prowler, if it makes you feel better, it's snwing to beat the band with a total of 12-18 inches predicted here. Temp is 6.7 degree's. I lived in Fulda for the four years dad was in the airforce. I went back to visit in the late eighties and I really like Germany. Hope you get home soon. scott

[mrsinbad]

SII, you forgot this one!

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=7536043861

[beagle]

The demand is coming...Look at the trend of what was "recommended" by the yak fishing crowd 4 years ago as a 1st yak, and what we talk about now.
What is happening is we are taking fisherman, and making a good many of them...PADDLERS. They will want the performance and desire the speed.
We are not talking about "bubbas" here. "Bubba" don't exercise when he fishes, and "bubba" don't fish alone. We are talking about folks who would be willing to drag a 200# john boat across a 100 yard field, if they knew they would be into the fish.
The biggest mistake the industry can make is feeling that the yak may be to "technical", or specialized.
I beleive the demand is coming and who ever has the product will do very well indeed.
Just a guess.

[mrsinbad]

Wow, big dinner is hitting me and I'm in a food coma so I can't think. Lots to read and think about since I last posted but will have to digest that along with my dinner.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originaly posted by mrsinbad:
We should start an evolving/growing document/discussion and call it a User Requirement (at least, that is what we call it in the Corporate world)

· Have Jon/Joey start a new Forum to accumulate/codify these ideas/discussions for you, beagle/Cobra/Emotion/WS/OK/etc. to reference if desired. Very valuable ideas/suggestions and feedback will be the result. We will all learn something.
· Start a new thread regarding for each design attribute so we can fully discuss, bash, and hash out what is wished for versus what can be delivered. For example, C0ckpit Layout – center hatch/no hatch, center rib, size shape, anticipated use/no center rib, footwell steps or smooth, scupper hole(s), etc. etc. By the time everyone is finished, you will know exactly what kind of yak is desired.
· Develop a checklist of sorts and consider where and how each design aspect will be used so you don’t end up with a regionalized product and may not be suitable to certain potential customers… for example, the discussion on the size of the WS T160 front hatch not being able to hold a yak cart… what is it going to be used for? what else will be stored? who is going to use it? when will it be used (any restrictions by weather/season)? where is it going to be use (West Coat, East Coast, Australia, high/low crime areas, etc.) Feedback should include all geographic locations and I’m sure billybob and his mates will pitch in when asked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyway, SII let's see if Jon or Joey will set up a separate forum to organize and discuss each aspect of our HPFK.

[billybob]

beagle: You're right. Looks like the time has come, or will do in the very near future.
I hope you've brought this thread to the attention of the powers that be in your organisation.
'He who hesitates is lost' although in this case I prefer... 'Who Dares, Wins'.
Simplistically; I think what we're saying is... a fast boat that has appeal for the average paddler is going to be no less appealing to them if the upper deck is designed to accomodate the needs of the yak angler. The changes are not that radical.

[JonS]

The Heritage Exp. hull already exists so there's at least one kayak on the market that's almost there.

[Santiago II]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonS:
The Heritage Exp. hull already exists so there's at least one kayak on the market that's almost there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Jon, think we could cut up the deck and weld in better features to make a prototype?

[JonS]

That's a lot of welding. http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif However I do have a Navigator laying out in the backyard that is a warranty replaced hull. http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=633102653

[swanny]

Some good news guys http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=2956085195. I had a long conversation with dave from heritage at the marlboro, MA fly fishing show. He said that they are very serious about producing the seadart 17 with a tankwell. He seemed very eager for imput and is just a cool guy to talk kayaks with. I really would like to see these guys pick it up a notch. If dave's the guy you gotta deal with at the front line, then every dealing will be a pleasant one. The new marquesas looked very impressive. Very, very similar lay out to a 140. I suspect it will perform better than a 140, If so, that may be the next hot boat. If that seadart - the old exp - ever comes with a tank well, that will be one step closer to the boat many of us are searching for http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Scott]

let's try to get them to take more than one step. S

[JonS]

Dave and I have been playing phone tag for several days.

I like Dave alot however and unfortunately he's not the decision maker at Heritage and as beagle can attest, his hands are tied. Besides a tankwell you have to have below deck storage that's accessible. Big hatches so things like carts, rods, etc. can be put below and accessed. So far that's been the major problem as the Owner has not allowed the hatches or even a proper surface so the end user or a shop can add one. Only Hobie can get away with lousy below deck access (but we've been able to work on that) because they have a monopoly with their mirage drive. Heritage can't afford such short sightedness in the competitve paddling market.

I very much would like to be working with Heritage. They have the performance hulls we want and if they'd get the other features incorporated they could jump to the head of the class.

The Marqueasas appears to be the Redfish without rod holders.

[mrsinbad]

I agree with you Jon. Let's see if Heritage takes advantage of this opportunity and decide to take the lead dog role.

[The Riddler]

That is good new that Heritage will listen as well. A perfect weapon for Swanny to pursue palegics!

I didn't like the Seadart. The Marquesa is around locally and I will be demoing in the spring. The price is right. Wider then the Seadart and other potential HP fishing kayaks but some of us dont have access problems nor care about speed. I would rather have acceptable intial and secondary to battle big bass while trolling without the weight. Maybe the Marquesa (Redfish) could be added to this catorgory of big guy kayaks that are lighter and effecient.

Nice to see Heritage taken an interest to Northeast anglers. Afterall their homebase is RI. http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums?s=418607442&a=ga&ul=2956085195 Unless that has changed.

[mrsinbad]

Riddler, Jon said Dave from Heritage is a nice guy but he doesn't call the shots there... it's the owner and he has not seen the need to change anything. I made my post in hope the owner of Heritage will see the value of making changes to his Sea Dart.